One of the two Georgia seats goes to Democrat

[Lexicus]

You're comparing the lower rungs of political spectrum. I'm talking about the highest. In Europe, if you have ambitions, you usually ride with party closest to your ideology. In US, if you have the funds, you can try going in as independent, try a third party, or take the path of least resistance and hitch a ride in one of main parties. But if you differ from the ideology of the bosses, sooner or later they'll bar you from advancing. That's what happened to Sanders in 2016 primaries, if you don't remember. He was just too different, so they had plans to rig the primaries against him, as revealed by leaked emails.

LOL, what? In Europe, the party "bosses" have much more direct and indirect power over candidates for office. In fact, in the US the parties are basically nonexistent at the institutional level, so much so that even talking about party "bosses" is anachronistic.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I would actually say it strongly over-privileges geographically concentrated interest groups for this reason.

I'd actually say the opposite about the US party system too - it is staggeringly open and public and lacking in internal secrecy and discipline compared to virtually any other party system. The central leadership has virtually no control over candidacy because of the open mass primary system, all they can do is try and put their thumbs on the scale with endorsements and the odd process change.

1 of the many problems with the US and UK systems is that FPTP means that in many seats or states the vote is effectively sown up. The parties are only really competing for a few swing seats or states every election. Which they are may change over time but theres only a few that decide elections. This contributes to people thinking their vote doesn't make any difference.

 

[Patine]

Hillary tweeted: "Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell."

This means:
Green Energy.
Free tuition at public colleges and universities.
Taxing the wealthy.
Some form of universal health care.
Return to civil rights.
...and maybe civility.

Probably not. Democratic leadership in the United States, Presidentially and/or Congressionally, has always been, in my lifetime, a trail of tears of disappointment, broken promises, half-*** compromises, unworkable and overdone schemes that are highly inefficient instead of simple, straight-forward solutions, excuses, selling out to plutocrats, and carrying out the traditional Bipartisan regimes of high state crimes, violations, and atrocities, where the two parties almost always cooperate. Perhaps a bit better than Republican governance, but nothing to hold one's breath or garner high hopes over.

 

[Sarin]

Well, then change the parties. They are not set in stone.

I'm just not convinced voting third party in elections where they don't have a chance is a fruitful strategy. Sure, in local races that give some viability and especially in primaries, but else?

You can't expect change overnight, not with the main parties entrenched this way. But if you vote for third parties in locals, in congress elections, talk to people about it when discussion swings that way...you might find that eventually, you'll have a little impact on how are those third parties perceived. Maybe it'll turn out that there are more people coming to senses out there and will vote third parties too.

But what are your other choices? Vote for the people whose hold on power depends on the very same principle that you want to remove and hope that if you do it long enough, they'll change? Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

LOL, what? In Europe, the party "bosses" have much more direct and indirect power over candidates for office. In fact, in the US the parties are basically nonexistent at the institutional level, so much so that even talking about party "bosses" is anachronistic.

In multi party system with 12 significant parties, on the top level you still have 12 different ideologies. How many do you really have on top level of US politics? Right now, potato and potato. (that doesn't really work well when written, but I think you get what I mean)

Sometimes the bosses aren't officially called as such, but there are always people on top holding more strings than other people. Hillary was one such in 2016, that's why she could-and was prepared to, as the email leaks shown-rig the primaries against Sanders.

 

[Lexicus]

In multi party system with 12 significant parties, on the top level you still have 12 different ideologies. How many do you really have on top level of US politics? Right now, potato and potato. (that doesn't really work well when written, but I think you get what I mean)

Ideologies aren't objective constructions. If your 12 ideologies all look to me like different colors of capitalism, there's no one to say I'm wrong. In any case, this is a bold argument coming from a European, where your Socialist and Social Democratic parties have been carrying out a neoliberal capitalist agenda for decades now. Hell, even a "new left" party like Syriza, when put to the test, did not govern too differently from the conservatives in Greece.

@innonimatu could probably explain more about how the EU has tamped down actual diversity in European politics, forcing any party in power to carry out the agenda of the elite.

 

[Sarin]

Ideologies aren't objective constructions. If your 12 ideologies all look to me like different colors of capitalism, there's no one to say I'm wrong. In any case, this is a bold argument coming from a European, where your Socialist and Social Democratic parties have been carrying out a neoliberal capitalist agenda for decades now. Hell, even a "new left" party like Syriza, when put to the test, did not govern too differently from the conservatives in Greece.

@innonimatu could probably explain more about how the EU has tamped down actual diversity in European politics, forcing any party in power to carry out the agenda of the elite.

Here's a hint: Europe doesn't mean just Nordic countries, France, Germany and UK.

 

[Lexicus]

Here's a hint: Europe doesn't mean just Nordic countries, France, Germany and UK.

My post used Greece as an example. But instead of engaging in innuendo like this, why don't you just tell me which country you're in? Afraid that the recent political history of said country might prove my point?

 

[innonimatu]

Ideologies aren't objective constructions. If your 12 ideologies all look to me like different colors of capitalism, there's no one to say I'm wrong. In any case, this is a bold argument coming from a European, where your Socialist and Social Democratic parties have been carrying out a neoliberal capitalist agenda for decades now. Hell, even a "new left" party like Syriza, when put to the test, did not govern too differently from the conservatives in Greece.

@innonimatu could probably explain more about how the EU has tamped down actual diversity in European politics, forcing any party in power to carry out the agenda of the elite.

he situation in Europe is weird to say the least. It's at the same time an extremely arrogant, antidemocratic and very frail construct. It has withdrawn when it was actually forced to, else it wouldn't still exist now. See the episodes such as de Gaulle's kicking of "european institutions", or indeed brexit. States remain the only possible sovereigns, the European Federation is a political impossibility. But the anti-democratic features of the EU are oh-so-useful to the typical national governments that they have worked glove in hand with what is now the EU.
The outcome, in Europe is that basically it produces cynicism on a continental scale. I've updated the EU thread with some info on this.

 

[Sarin]

My post used Greece as an example. But instead of engaging in innuendo like this, why don't you just tell me which country you're in? Afraid that the recent political history of said country might prove my point?

Because it's not relevant to the discussion, and I have a strict policy of divulging as little personal information on the internet as possible.

 

[Lexicus]

Because it's not relevant to the discussion, and I have a strict policy of divulging as little personal information on the internet as possible.

Well, let's continue the discussion. The two American parties are not functionally the same. I am a left critic of the Democrats and I can recognize that they remain the obviously better option than the Republicans.

If the Democrats now have control of the Senate, and Biden takes office on Jan 20th as scheduled, I think we will see exactly how different the Democrats are from the Republicans. I am predicting that the difference will be smaller than I'd like, but also that it will be quite noticeable.

 

[Patine]

In multi party system with 12 significant parties, on the top level you still have 12 different ideologies. How many do you really have on top level of US politics? Right now, potato and potato. (that doesn't really work well when written, but I think you get what I mean)

Your logic only holds if you solely judge by the top level of power currently. The Duopoly Parties institutionally marginalize Third Party and Independent candidates in a way that only be properly be called a form of electoral rigging. In truth, one should not look at the ideologies held by the current top level of power here, but those held by the totality of voters, most of whom are cheated every election once Primary nomination bottlenecks and post-election compromises are made.

 

[IglooDame]

Hillary tweeted: "Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell."

This means:
Green Energy.
Free tuition at public colleges and universities.
Taxing the wealthy.
Some form of universal health care.
Return to civil rights.
...and maybe civility.

I would not get your hopes up. You might recall the first two years of President Obama's administration, which featured Dem-majority House and Senate? Not an enormous shift there, and that was with GWB having graciously faded from public view.

 

[Sarin]

So please, feel free to give an example of any European country with a left party in government carrying out an actual left agenda in the last twenty years.

Now you're shifting the goalposts. But sure, Norway is most left-leaning country in Europe, speaking about socio-economical scale of course.

Your logic only holds if you solely judge by the top level of power currently. The Duopoly Parties institutionally marginalize Third Party and Independent candidates in a way that only be properly be called a form of electoral rigging. In truth, one should not look at the ideologies held by the current top level of power here, but those held by the totality of voters, most of whom are cheated every election once Primary nomination bottlenecks and post-election compromises are made.

Cold, hard truth. They don't matter in US politics except as pawns. Otherwise, the issues plaguing US citizens in past decades would be addressed in some way. That's why I look on the top level.

 

[Patine]

Cold, hard truth. They don't matter in US politics except as pawns. Otherwise, the issues plaguing US citizens in past decades would be addressed in some way. That's why I look on the top level.

Only because of the undemocratic, electorally-rigged, corrupt, and glutted in their long-abused incumbency Duopoly Parties - who are, both of them, the REAL problem in this issue that need to be removed from the board before any improvement, betterment, needed reform, or real democracy or electoral choice - and thus government accountability and transparency of any sort - is even possible.

 

[Sarin]

Only because of the undemocratic, electorally-rigged, corrupt, and glutted in their long-abused incumbency Duopoly Parties - who are, both of them, the REAL problem in this issue that need to be removed from the board before any improvement, betterment, needed reform, or real democracy or electoral choice - and thus government accountability and transparency of any sort - is even possible.

Dude, what the hell do you think I've been writing here all along?

 

[Patine]

Dude, what the hell do you think I've been writing here all along?

I haven't been a dedicated subscriber to your posts, I must confess. I've only caught a handful of them.

 

[Sarin]

I haven't been a dedicated subscriber to your posts, I must confess. I've only caught a handful of them.

Read before you post next time. So you don't go off half-cocked like a Trumpet at the Capitol.

 

[Ajidica]

@Sarin @Patine can one of you please get an avatar so I know whose posts I am scrolling past?

 

[Patine]

like a Trumpet at the Capitol.

How, oh how, did I sound like one of those? Or have you taken up vapid, inappropriate, baseless, vitriolic, slanderous, lies with over-the-line, egregious, and unacceptable as personal attacks casually and unrepentantly, and without a care, like @Gorbles, @Ajidica, and @Cutlass have embraced as their stains of modus operandi?

Moderator Action: Enough. --LM

 

[Sarin]

@Sarin @Patine can one of you please get an avatar so I know whose posts I am scrolling past?

I will take your position...into consideration.

Well, that's enough for today, gotta sleep sometime, even though I'm in quarantine and have nothing to do.