One of "those" starts: what to do?

[OTAKUjbski]

So I just started a Random game, and this is what came out (sorry for the big screenshots ... I'm too lazy to upload them to Photobucket tonight ... I had to open & reopen the game enough times just to get the screenshots I wanted as it is already.):

Spoiler Game Settings screenshot :

I moved my Warrior 1NW from where he started to pop the hut (I was actually hoping for a map!). Fearing the Forests would cost me too many turns to make moving the Settler viable, I settled in place.

Spoiler Capital screenshot :

NOTE: Every tile of the BFC is either already a shown resource or a Forest, which means it's impossible for any additional resources to be hiding in there somewhere.

I MUST settle a 2nd city if I intend to get a strategic resource on this map.

Spoiler tech tree with research times :

NOTE: The order in which these techs are selected have nothing to do with the order I think they should be researched ... it's just for a quick & easy research time reference in case you want to bean count the turns.

Also, the turn values are for if I work the Riverside Plains Stone for the extra .

So ... what would you do?

I hate starts like this. No matter how I slice it, every move feels wrong.

There's really only two scenarios that seem OK, but they're both so obscene to me I just don't know. I'm hoping you guys can come up with something better I'm not seeing:

• Option #1: Work the Riverside Plains Stone (1F 2H 1C) and build Warrior > Warrior > Worker > Settler > Worker/Settler? while teching Mining > Bronze Working > AH/Mysticism/Masonry/The Wheel?. This would put the Worker out just behind BW in time to chop the Settler(s). Depending on what BW reveals, I could determine whether I needed AH (if no Copper), Mysticism (if in 2nd ring of BFC) or Masonry (Copper in inner ring so Washington can improve Stone and chop Stonehenge or the Great Wall).
  
  
• Option #2: Work the Riverside Plains Stone (1F 2H 1C) and build Warrior > Worker > Stonehenge/Great Wall? while teching Mysticism > Masonry > AH/Mining? > BW > AH/The Wheel?. [Bizarro, huh?] The Worker would waste a few turns waiting between AH & BW, but immediately improving the Stone would all but guarantee Stonehenge and/or the Great Wall. However, I'd have a LOT of catch-up to play, and I feel like I'd be playing against the RNG to settle a strategic resource before my opponents (God, how I pray they're far away).

So ... that's that ... I really hope you guys can come up with something better, because both of those options pretty much suck.

 

[oynaz]

You are Industrious and have stone next door. This means Pyramids in my book, and later on the Hanging Gardens. This will give you 2 or 3 Great Engineers for some additional Wonders. This also means that your capital would a good GP farm.

So, Bronze Working is a must. If you have copper, go for Masonry afterwards, and make the 'mids. If not, throw in Archery first.
When the 'mids are done, REX to take advantage of organized, and go for the Hanging Gardens.

 

[ese-aSH]

low on food but many forest -->

tech BW
make one worker,
chop + whip a second worker (build a farm on wine with worker 1 while waiting for BW / size 2 pop)
a soon as you got your 2 workers you will be able to pump out a settler : chop 4 forest while growing ; then improve cows + 1 more farm ; chop a second settler (4 more forests) while growing
your new cities should build worker at the very start because your capital is too low on food to build any settler/worker by itself (except via chopping, but 9 chopped forest is already a lot you may want to keep them for later use).


edit : you got 4 grassland hill + cows + stone + wine.

thats 4F 12H 1C+ 4F 2H + 1F 4H 4C

total 11F 19H 7C (including city tile) (if you grow size 6, cottage the wine and work it)

thats a lot of H !

you should go for the mids, so choose 2nd and 3rd cities so they have large amount of food to run specialists.

 

[kazapp]

I must confess I'm a bit taken aback by your pessimism. I mean, a Monarch-level player with an Industrious leader and Stone in the BFC?

What I'd do is build two Workers (perhaps supplemented by a third stolen one) and then chop much of those vast expanses of wood, sparing a choice few patches.

You really need more than a single Worker here. Not only will furious chopping give your Civ a huge boost in production, so you can settle two more cities, get your economy going and begin an Axe Army; they will also be able to farm those riverside grasslands of yours.

So Mining>BW and then perhaps Agriculture, The Wheel, Masonry and AH...?

Good luck

 

[pigswill]

You've go 10t grassland, 4 grass hills, 3 coastal tiles, wine, stone and cows on a river and the coast and you're complaining?
You will start off fairly slow because of all the forest butonce you can start chopping you'll be away.
Maybe build worker while working stone or grapes for the added commerce. Start with AH to work the cows (4f 2h) then grow and research mining, bw.

At this point in the game you have no idea of your situation. You could be isolated, sharing an island with monte and bod, on a pangea with gandhi and mansa as your neighbours. There's no point speculating about longer term development until you've explored the neighborhood.

 

[Roxlimn]

I'm also rather surprised. I'd be fairly excited at the situation. Oodles of Forests for chopping Wonders, Industrious AND Stone. obsolete would be fairly ecstatic, probably.

I'm thinking Mining-BW to start, so you can get to chopping the Forests right away. Whether you then Axe-Rush or REX furiously or go Wonder-hunting will depend on the state of the rest of the map. IMX, Masonry-Stone comes far too late for Stonehenge to benefit from it unless you beeline Masonry directly, and you probably don't want to do that. Could be beneficial, but with this start I would favor REXing the early production first and then either getting Great Wall to defend against Barbs (and get the GSpy, natch) or setting up the Pyramids/Rep combo for crazy teching.

Just my opinion.

 

[spoooq]

My slight variation on what has already been said above...

Mining > BW
Worker > Worker > Settler > Warrior > Warrior > Wonder

If theres no Copper, head for AH next to reveal horse for your second city and work the cow, otherwise straight to Masonry for Mids (if you can find an obvious GPFarm, otherwise GW and dont build Warriors), turn the GE into the GL or some other useful thing and youre away.

Edit: If you dont mind stealing Workers and have the opportunity, you can modify this quite a bit to add some choking Warriors, remove at least one of the Workers, and consider getting AH earlier than otherwise to take advantage of the extra growth opportunity.

 

[futurehermit]

wonderspam: stonehenge, gw, toa or oracle, pyramids, HG, etc. etc.

basically, this is an obsolete-style-dream game

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Agreed. Hit bronze working and masonry, then start the WE/SSE dominance. You can probably get almost every stone wonder in the ancient/classical age, and still settle a few cities. Chop chop chop...!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I must confess I'm a bit taken aback by your pessimism. I mean, a Monarch-level player with an Industrious leader and Stone in the BFC?

I'm also rather surprised. I'd be fairly excited at the situation. Oodles of Forests for chopping Wonders, Industrious AND Stone. obsolete would be fairly ecstatic, probably.

I guess I've gotten soft being spoiled with starts that play themselves (you know the ones: Coastal seafood start with Fishing or Corn and Pigs with Agriculture).

I guess I just didn't feel this one was obvious enough for me ... or maybe it was because I was playing at 2AM again. IDK.

 

[Gliese 581]

What about building a warrior while growing to size 2 (micro with cows) and then build a worker. Research order AH->Mining->Bronze Working.
Have the worker irrigate the wine first, this will help you get your tech rate up alot which you desperately need at this point to get started, then pasture the cows and after that you can start chopping out your expansion.

 

[spoooq]

Theres no magic second tile that would warrant the time spent growing. He'll have the Great Wall by the time that Warrior would have been useful for defending against Barbs.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Looks like a good start to me. Unfortunately building an early worker will result in the worker having nothing to do. But you don't have many other great tiles to anyway, so there isn't much choice - until you get the cows running and clear some forests. I would go warrior-worker while researching Bronzeworking. Once you have bronzeworking, tech AH. Then masonry. And then you are in a really strong position. You don't need copper - just build the great wall and maybe stonehenge. Then send out your settlers. Then build the pyramids.

If there are no copper or horse sites you can settle, then tech archery - but the GW can take care of barbarians - just settle sites in a ring around your capital and don't expose settlers for long in the wilds.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Theres no magic second tile that would warrant the time spent growing. He'll have the Great Wall by the time that Warrior would have been useful for defending against Barbs.

I think that's why I stumbled over what to do at first. I'm not used to having "one tile" Capitals like this ... my map generator is usually very kind to me.


Well, I started this game 'online', so I might as well keep it here.

I played up until just before the 1st Settler, and I'd like your advice again.

I think you'll be very pleased.


I started by doing something I never do, which is to build a Warrior first. Since I was already breaking my own rules, I figured I'd go ahead and do it big by building 2 Warriors, instead of just 1.

Mining (11) + BW (25) = 36 turns of research
Warrior (8) + Warrior (7) + Worker (23) = 38 turns of building

I knew I needed to get my 1st city right the first time, so I wanted as much knowledge of the land as possible before chopping out the Settler.

Spoiler Washington's initial build order :

As it turns out, those 2 Warriors were exactly what I needed ... and for reasons a couple of you guys mentioned.

Carthage (Hannibal) is 7 tiles North of Washington, and Rome (Augustus) is 8 tiles SE of Washington.

I happened upon Caesar's Worker building a Quarry on some Marble first. Then I camped Hannibal's Corn (and Gems!!!) waiting for his 1st Worker to appear.

I stole both of their Workers.

Spoiler Worker stealing :

In the midst of that, I got two very beneficial random events.

The first was +26 to Bronze Working, which shaved off 2 turns. The second was the "Human Testing" event, which grants a 90% chance of a permanent +2 in exchange for a temporary 30 turns (2 whip cycles) of in every city.

Spoiler random events :

To my great delight, Copper is right outside my door just SE of Washington. It's just off a river, so I teched The Wheel after BW to hook it up more quickly.

In hindsight, I probably should've teched AH before The Wheel.

Spoiler copper location :

So here's my dotmap as it stands now. In 3 turns, my 4th chop will be complete, and my Settler will be out the gate.

Spoiler an empty dotmap if you want it :

RED. Decent hybrid city. No real rush on it.

GREEN. Good Production and Commerce Potential. Ivory for also a bonus.

BLUE. Clams, Fish and Pigs. Great specialist and whipping potential. Very high priority after Mysticism.


These are the potential Copper sites, I think. None of these scream of long-term potential, but they all put Copper in the inner ring:

CYAN & MAGENTA: Both make good use of the Rice, which will otherwise very likely be wasted. (On the other hand, that little island would make a hilarious Maoi location. )

BLACK & YELLOW: Both put the river in my cultural borders, meaning I'll only need two roads to connect the Copper to Washington. Neither have great immediate potential, but Black gives me the option of Farming the Flood Plains and whipping a few Axes out on Caesar's doorstep. Black is also 3 from Washington, meaning the Settler can build on the 2nd turn after he pops out (in 5 turns total). I lean heavily towards Black.


NOTES:

In the tan circle, I have a Worker finishing a chop in 3 turns. He'll then immediately build a Road.

The green circle around Rome has me nervous (maybe I'm just being paranoid). His NE Grassland hill is next to a 'real' river, so it can't have an early hidden resource. Assuming he actually does start with a strategic resource (the AI always does on my computer), that's where it is. Since it isn't Copper, there's a great chance it's Horses, which would eat my Axemen alive. If it's Iron, then GG T_T. Either way, I see Rome as my 1st target (despite how much I really want those Gems.)

AC is also Creative, so if I don't take him ASAP, he's going to become impossible to deal with pre-Cats.

NW of Carthage are more Gems, Rice and Clams along the coast amidst the Jungle. The Clam is kinda out of the way, though (you can see it in the Worker-steal screenshot).


... so that's that ...

What do you guys think?

 

[BurN]

It's too bad the copper isn't north rather then south. You have a strong prod capital and a lot of forest. I think you should settle the copper city and rush the orange dude with axes because that guy has a sweet capital. I would settle the copper city 1S of the yellow dot, to be coastal. You can work the rice if you plant a city on that island near your capital later.

The sooner you attack that guy the better, he doesn't seem to have any military resource. Or am I missing something.

 

[pigswill]

Second city to connect copper, chop capital, axe-rush Rome, rush Carthage.

Maybe yellow dot. If those are floodplains north of Rome then you have a potential triple gold city which should finance your early empire.

Maybe declare on Rome as soon as you have an axe outside his borders and use axe to occupy potential iron/horse while awaiting the rest of your army.

 

[futurehermit]

Stonehenge/GW --> Axerush Rome --> Pyramids --> Axerush Carthage --> Settle remaining landmass --> Stabilize Economy --> Win

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Though the responses were few, it was pretty obvious the correct move ...

Round 3: 2975BC - 1100 BC

2850 BC: New York founded as the black dot. My Worker was on hand to start the Copper mine immediately. Instead of building a road to the river, I decided it would be better to build it south across the hill (I had a Worker on the hill already who had just finished a chop). This would allow me to mine the hill more quickly later, saving at least 1 Worker turn.



2600 BC: Met Genghis Khan (Aggressive, Imperialistic). He has Copper. That's still all I know.

2450 BC: Stole Hannibal's 2nd Worker ... from the same Corn ... the AI never learns.

2150 BC: Animal Husbandry finishes. There are Horses west of Washington. More important: Horses are in Rome's BFC, making them a certain 1st target. Mysticism is started (I hope I can get Stonehenge).

2125 BC: Caesar founds Antium right where I hoped he would: 1N of the Pigs south of New York.

Utilizing ~42 of overflow from a 2-pop whip and a chop, I whipped a Granary + Barracks + Axeman in New York. I usually don't advise whipping when the food bar is empty, but any more than one more turn of production put into the queue would've resulted in from too much overflow. (ref: Hammer Overflow)



1800 BC: Hannibal builds Utica for me 1SE of the Jungled Ivory.

1750 BC: With 7 CR1 Axemen, war is declared on Augustus Caesar.

1725 BC: New York whips two Axemen. I think Obsolete is a big proponent of whipping two units at a time .. I can't remember.

Two Axemen require 104P. By switching to a tile, my production becomes 5P. 52 - 5 = 47P remaining on the next turn, making it a 2-pop whip. 90P from the whip + two turns of production (10P) = 100P. 100 + 5 = 105. Thus, I'm able to rush two units with one crack of the .



1700 BC: Rome is captured at the expense of 3 brave Axemen. (a moment of silence, please)



1600 BC: With much overkill, 7 Axemen capture Antium and 2 Workers (one a Settler) with a loss of 2 brave Axemen -- putting an end to the budding Roman Empire. (another moment of silence, please)

1550 BC: Washington finally reaches population 5. Stonehenge and The Great Wall will complete over the next 8 turns -- at which point the war machine will crank up again.



1250 BC: War is declared on Hannibal with 9 Axemen on the border and 3 in reserve.

1200 BC: The RNG is ridiculously kind to me -- granting me an 18.5% and 23.1% victory. The 3rd unit (freshly whipped) in Carthage was a Swordsman. Not only was he easy pickings for my CR2 Axeman, but that also means Carthage has Iron nearby (hopefully in the BFC) -- meaning I now have all 3 early strategic resources under my control.





1125 BC: Utica falls (and its 2 Workers ... one a Settler) at the expense of 3 Axemen, sounding the end of Carthage -- earning America its first Great General, Isoroku Yamamoto. (a final moment of silence, please)

1100 BC: I'm going to go play with my dogs now.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

State of the World: 1100 BC (an ode to Sisiutil)

The lay of the land:

My scouting Warrior died to a hostile hut -- which popped 1 Lion and 4 Warriors in addition to the 1 Panther in range in the Jungle.

I need to do a lot more scouting soon.



Technology Advisor:

I think Hunting is a good choice to gain access to the already-Camped Ivory.


Religious Advisor:

Nothing to see. Hinduism and Buddhism both found in unknown locations.

City Views:

Spoiler :

 

[Roxlimn]

1st Priority: Scout. Need to know where everyone else is.
2nd Priority: Vertical growth. Lots of cities already for the time, vertical growth to boost commerce and productivity.
3rd Priority: Cross the ocean. Need to know how everyone else is doing.


Having BOTH Stone and Marble at this stage of the game (and Industrious as well!) is an incredible stroke of luck. I daresay you should be able to sweep the Classical Era Wonders if you really wanted to. Not that you should as a matter of policy. Find a productive GP farm and wonderhunt there. Probably should be selective about which GP you want to shoot for and concentrate the GPPs in sound fashion.

Ironically, the GW is now something of a liability. It's producing GSpy points in a situation where you won't really be to put a GSpy to good use. Let's hope you find a techer somewhere soon. Nice game.