One year on, I'm happy Trump won

Bootstoots

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No, I've not become a supporter of his. Far from it. But if I look at the possible medium-term futures (post-2020) as they exist now, I can't help but notice they're much brighter than if Clinton had won the election.

I know it's unfashionable to think very far into the future, instead focusing on the suffering that GOP policies are causing now or in the very near future. Make no mistake, this is real. But there's now a lot more potential to actually make substantial fixes to our system moving forward.

The thing about the Republican party is that they managed to do quite well as the party of "no", but all of their actual policies are deeply unpopular - more so than the Dem policies they were elected in protest of.

The ACA's approval rating shot into the high 50s as the Republican bill languished at 29%. Cutting tax credits for upper-middle-income mortgages (a rare policy I agree with), adoptions, charitable giving, student loan interest, taxing grad student tuition remission, and so on, just for a corporate tax cut, is deeply unpopular as well. Most liberal social issues have solid majorities behind them by this point. Et cetera.

Losing 2016 is the only way the Dems could possibly regain control of statehouses and governor's offices before the 2018 and 2020 elections, determining who gets to gerrymander districts for the next decade. It also gives them much better odds of retaining their Senate seats in 2018 and possibly regaining the chamber in 2020. Further, the GOP president is incompetent, hampering his party's ability to cause damage while keeping it unpopular.

Imagine Obama 2011-16, but without his personal likability and cleanliness from scandals. If anything, the Dems would lose even more downballot races and keep holding nothing but the White House, causing interminable gridlock. The Democrats would be much more of a target for the frustrations of people who are losing out, and the level of tension among right-wingers in the heartland would keep climbing, risking outright organized violence, not just a spree killer here and there, and aided and abetted by even more frantic conspiracy theories at Breitbart, Infowars, etc. Now it's likely to blow over rather than blow up. The pressure is not totally gone, but greatly reduced by the Gasbag-In-Chief, who vents the pressurized hot air of that group like a safety valve via his interminable Tweetstorms.

To top everything off, the Democrats have finally figured out that their approach is deeply flawed. This much was obvious in 2010 and 2014, as they got slaughtered at every level, but having Obama there still gave them the belief that "progress [as they define it] is inevitable". They may stay stuck in their old approaches for now, out of instiitutional inertia if nothing else, but there is finally a chance that they may figure out how to be truly popular. With President Clinton II, they would continue sleepwalking toward the abyss.

The risk of true electoral authoritarian rule (e.g. Chavez, Erdogan, Orban, Putin, Duterte) remains as low as I had hoped it would be. Trump shows fondness for authoritarian rulers, but he has no ability to actually do that here. Both he and his party are way too incompetent to actually make the American state behave in that way. I read quite a bit about all of these characters after Trump's win, and what struck me is how much better they were at planning how to chip away at the democratic structures in their societies and then executing their plans. But neither Trump nor Ryan nor anyone else is showing any signs of pulling this off.

On social justice issues, we're seeing that people actually feel the need to organize and fight for them, and even to include others as allies rather than Balkanizing. Liberals I've talked to have shown a rapid gain in their understanding of intersectionality - that things like class, race, gender, sexuality, etc. are all interrelated, meaning that collaboration among many different interest groups is critical. And it's just beginning to show results.

Stunningly, we're making a major shift towards sexual harassment being truly not okay. That would never be the case if people were still trying to justify whatever Bill's latest sex scandal was and Hillary's attempts to cover it up just like in the 1990s. But a president who brags that he can "grab 'em by the pussy" is a truly effective catalyst for positive change away from that sort of behavior - within liberal ranks and not just outside them.

On immigration, Trump's ICE is deporting more people than the 2013-16 average, but we're only back to the rate that happened during Obama's first term, when nobody talked about it because the president was a well-spoken, highly competent, educated, mixed-race establishment liberal. On race relations, some white nationalist types have come out of the woodwork - only to be exposed for what they are in places like Charlottesville (take a look at the 2013 to 2017 vote swing there and in Albemarle County surrounding it to see how unpopular that event was). Jeff Sessions is as regressive and racist as they come within the GOP's top officials, but it's unlikely he'll manage to revive the Clinton I mass incarceration consensus despite his best efforts.

I still don't know about foreign policy. Clinton is a strong proponent of the 1990s liberal interventionist/"responsiblity to protect" doctrine, which seemed to work well in that decade but which has been a disaster ever since. She showed no signs of learning from the 2000s and 2010s, in which the limits to such a policy were blindingly obvious. Trump, on the other hand, is more willing to make peace with the fact that lots of the world is authoritarian, will not be liberal-democratic in the forseeable future, and that attempting to spread it anyway is a bad idea that greatly increases tensions with world powers like Russia and China. But he's highly erratic and may accidentally green-light an explosion of built-up Middle Eastern tension into outright war between Saudi (+Israeli) and Iranian blocs and jump on on the Saudi side, while Clinton would keep things more like Obama's status quo, except with a few more bombs and drone strikes.

All in all, the picture is really clear to me. As long as Ruth Bader Ginsburg keeps taking her vitamins, we're better off with Trump in office for now.
 
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I'd prefer a president that didn't force the nation to routinely gather and stand in the way of heinous policy.
 
I'd prefer a president that didn't force the nation to routinely gather and stand in the way of heinous policy.

Yeah, me too, viewed in isolation. But here I'm talking about the choice between the two possible presidents we actually had, and about how things would work out differently if we continued on an Obama-but-less-likable path versus if we went for the demagogic incompetent orange guy. Sometimes the worse of two choices viewed in isolation actually makes the system better in the long run, and that's what I'm arguing happened here.
 
No, I've not become a supporter of his. Far from it. But if I look at the possible medium-term futures (post-2020) as they exist now, I can't help but notice they're much brighter than if Clinton had won the election.

I know it's unfashionable to think very far into the future, instead focusing on the suffering that GOP policies are causing now or in the very near future. Make no mistake, this is real. But there's now a lot more potential to actually make substantial fixes to our system moving forward.
[...]

I'm sorry, but such world views are much too simple for my tastes. It's like the tributes of panem, where everyone is "shoot president snow". And then, the heroes walk away & leave the country in shambles.
 
Yeah, me too, viewed in isolation. But here I'm talking about the choice between the two possible presidents we actually had, and about how things would work out differently if we continued on an Obama-but-less-likable path versus if we went for the demagogic incompetent orange guy. Sometimes the worse of two choices viewed in isolation actually makes the system better in the long run, and that's what I'm arguing happened here.

In theory, I agree.

In practice, however, being happy or otherwise pleased with the implications of Trump's presidency feels to me to be a privileged position. Someone who can be happy about it is also probably someone who isn't a specific target of his administration and his supporters. You and I may have some health problems, and his constituents aren't exactly fans of people who have those, but we still win out over people who are gay, trans, Mexican, etc.

I'm not sure an LGBTQ PoC could realistically say they're happy that Trump keeps trying to kill them because it might have some sort of payoff twenty years from now.
 
Being able to detach yourself from immediate suffering in hope of positive developments down the road is obviously a privileged position. But does that make it an incorrect stance to take?

edit 2: I'll grant that I'm far more utilitarian and less moralistic than most people. Which actually means something interesting, and that partially refutes your privilege argument now that I've thought of it. I'd be okay with my own self being disadvantaged in ways that actually do apply to me (e.g. poorer mental health provision) if there were some clear greater advantage to other people in society. So in the case of me as a specific unusual person, I actually think I'm not really doing that.

edit: And of course, Trump's not actively trying to kill underprivileged people. Some more will die than otherwise for reasons like police brutality being higher than it would likely be over the span 2017-20, more people being deported to more violent countries, low refugee totals, etc. But all presidents implicitly kill large numbers of people through their policy choices, or could choose to let fewer people die but instead let more die - it's just one of those brutal facts of reality.
 
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I mean, I can't run a parallel universe and sample it to see what the outcome is under two different cases. But I do know how Obama's presidency was a disaster for Democrats at every other level, and I do know that personal animosity to Clinton was much higher, and I know how US census cycles and election seasons work, and I also know a whole lot of darker stuff about how civil insurgencies and wars start and the role that conspiracy theories and underlying social tension play in the years leading up to them, which is why I feel unusually like we dodged a bullet rather than caught one.

I admit I'm alarmist here, though. But I'm also the only liberal I know who watched Alex Jones intently, as much as I did any real news source, and I became very keenly aware of how it would happen. Most liberals don't even know who that guy is, much less why he was worth taking seriously in the fall of 2016. And I'll never forget watching the war correspondent turned activist Chris Hedges suddenly lighten up after Trump won, while at the same time being unsparing in his criticism of him. He was there in Sarajevo just before the shells started falling, and the only people who at that time wouldn't believe that there were Serb militias within 20 km of the city limits were the intellectuals and higher-class types.

Speaking as someone who understands climate change on a fairly deep level - the Paris agreement was a joke. And not just it, but any conceivable international agreement would be really weak even with enforcement mechanisms, because climate change is inherent to the structure of consumer capitalism. We're actually achieving a pretty impressive buildout of renewables, but even in the literal best case scenario where a large, rich country committed everything it could while still growing its economy, it reduced its carbon emissions by just over 1% per annum. Not only that, it had inherited a bunch of Trabants and stupid clunky factories at the start point of the data series. That we're cooking ourselves is built deep within our system and no UN conference or Davos meeting will solve it.

But anyway, anyone who disagrees with my analysis here should answer the following question. If you were somehow able to magically control the 2012 presidential election, and knowing what you do know about how things turned out in the five years after Obama was re-elected, would you switch the winner to Romney?

Yes, it still involves hypotheticals. People tend to announce that they are refusing to engage hypotheticals not because they dislike hypotheticals per se, or see them generally as nonsense, but because they're disturbed by the hypotheses put forward. Hypothetical situations are critical to how we think as humans - we are able to construct models of alternate futures. By all means disagree with my hypotheses, but no sidestepping on the (true, but irrelevant) basis that it's not really possible to know for sure what would have happened.
 
I agree with you to some extent. Had Hillary won, we'd now probably be watching her impeachment proceedings on CSPAN, McConnell would still be blocking SCOTUS nominations, and there would be no way the Democrats would even be looking at taking either the Senate or the House in 2018.

Still, this thread is going to look pretty silly when Trump starts a nuclear war with North Korea tomorrow morning.

I suppose one can only tell in a couple of years time.
 
I thought that about Bush II, but instead of discrediting the GOP for years he just permanently lowered the standards for the party and the country.
In eight to sexteen years from now the US president will be a serial killer with brain damage and clown make up.
 
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I predict the Enabling Act !

Each time I think that GOP cant go any lower it dose
Including a pole which a majority of Republican said it was OK for Trump to use illegal means to win the election. Get the Russians to carry out an bombing attack on the US congress during the next election and vola dictatorship
 
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1 year since Trump -- you are happy he won
2 years since Trump -- you are happy too
3 years since Trump -- WW 3
That's still 2 more years than we would have gotten under Hillary. Embrace the peace while it lasts!
 
I don't think it's possible to predict what would've happened had Hilary been elected. Aside from, you know, the U.S. not leaving the Paris climate change agreement, and 938753 other stupid things Trump did.
If Hilary had been elected, I wonder how many thousands fewer people we'd have had walking over the border into Canada this past year. Hopefully they've moved those Haitians and Nigerians who were in the tent city indoors by now. And that's not counting the others who walked across the border into Manitoba (a lot of those were Muslims from Trump's list of Evil Muslim Countries).
 
It's far from impossible that Trump gets elected to a second term. Basically, everyone who voted for him the first time around will probably give an encore performance. And incumbents get re-elected the vast majority of the time.
 
It's far from impossible that Trump gets elected to a second term. Basically, everyone who voted for him the first time around will probably give an encore performance. And incumbents get re-elected the vast majority of the time.

That and it has pretty much become automatic for presidents to get two terms. Of course, Bush Sr. got booted out after one term and he was a lot more competent and a lot less...controversial than Trump.
 
I thought that about Bush II, but instead of disreditin the GOP for years he just permanently lowered the standards fir for the party and the country.
In eight to sexteen years from now the US president will be a serial killer with brain damage and clown make up.
It's frightening how fast we're marching toward this reality:


I agree with you to some extent. Had Hillary won, we'd now probably be watching her impeachment proceedings on CSPAN, McConnell would still be blocking SCOTUS nominations, and there would be no way the Democrats would even be looking at taking either the Senate or the House in 2018.

Still, this thread is going to look pretty silly when Trump starts a nuclear war with North Korea tomorrow morning.

I suppose one can only tell in a couple of years time.
Hillary would have had a non-functioning government for 4 more years. It would have been worse than it was under Obama and yeah she would have been under constant investigations for whatever random things the Republicans wanted to make up. Their base would have eaten it up too which is actually hearbreaking when you get down to it.
 
edit: And of course, Trump's not actively trying to kill underprivileged people. Some more will die than otherwise for reasons like police brutality being higher than it would likely be over the span 2017-20, more people being deported to more violent countries, low refugee totals, etc. But all presidents implicitly kill large numbers of people through their policy choices, or could choose to let fewer people die but instead let more die - it's just one of those brutal facts of reality.

That sounds a little bit more reasonable.

(1) Both republicans & democrats have valid points, which is why they have roughly 50% voters. To claim that one or the other would be completely wrong or completely evil is a little simplistic.
(2) Republicans & democrats have ruled the county for hundreds of years. If they wanted to turn it into a dictatorship they would long ago have done so.
(3) A single person cannot turn a country into a dictatorship. I'm much more worried about the data scavenging of facebook & google as a danger to democracy than about Trump.
(4) Borders and citizenship are fundamental parts of the constitution of all modern countries. If some people take the extreme position & oppose the mere existence of borders and citizenship it would, in my humble opinion, be best if they simply created a country of their own, which will, of course, fail.
 
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