Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by ork75, Feb 5, 2016.
You missed Angst on the river north of me.
Is it realistic/probable that my island and owen's or angst's lands mightve cross-pollinated peoples?
Possibly. Running with the current theories of population migrations through the cradle, Owen/Angst land is either 1st or 3rd wave, or a different branch of humanity entirely. I've left what the exact story is up to Owen, so you should check with him.
So far, I think we had talked about you being either 2nd or 3rd wave, so it's possible. Furthermore, if your or Owen/Angst's people are major seafarers it's possible there might colonization in your areas, or even vice versa.
It is up to you at the end of the day, though. Feel free to ask me if you have any questions.
I think I'll try to put up something about the migrations at some point soon.
Personally, I think that Ju is either the source or a waypoint for the seaborne Early Bronze Age "Migration 3", that ended up spreading through the littoral and eventually up the Némo River to be assimilated by our people. Though it's hard to know the source of Migration 3 without a global map, obviously.
My current hypothesis is that Haidzoela/Nemori/Shando (and possibly Ju and Grinwe) are all part of the same language family, though the chances are higher for Ju and/or Grinwe being language isolates or members of another family.
I'm going to go on a NAMING RAMPAGE soon, I promise.
Migration 3 came from the south.
Maybe it stopped in Ju and from there spread to the littoral?
I thought the Shando had been established as Wave 1
Oh, you're right. And yet the names sound so similar. Maybe that's residual Wave 1 influence on our culture.
Ok this is the first draft for consonantal phonology that I've drawn up so far:
l, ɬ, r
I opted for the bilabial fricatives rather than the labio-dental fricatives, so no f or v, but there is beta and phi (basically make an f/v sound without using your teeth). I went a little sibilant heavy, but not huge in the grand scheme of what's possible. Aspiration on voiceless plosives which is going to be phonemically distinct, likewise with unvoiced nasals. (The easiest way to imagine an unvoiced nasal is to say "mhm" - the h in that is /m̥/). I have 3 liquids - the "Spanish" trilled /r/, /l/ and the voiceless alveolar lateral (i.e. [ll] in Welsh) I'm kinda on the fence about the laryngeals. I think glottal stops are cool, but I worry it's stretching the inventory a bit too thin, so Angst and azale let me know how you feel about it. 28 phonemically distinct consonants isn't massive as far as inventories go (PIE has 26 or thereabouts), but I'm open to alterations if you guys have something different in mind. I'll work on the vowels a bit later assuming I'm not distracted by the superbowl.
Wow, loving the language stuff!
From what you're saying, you seem to be third wave cultures?
The Bezebek live along the northern, lower, part of the river immediately west of Shando.
Their chief city is Mirrepon, a little inland from the end of the river. From there they sail out in ships sometimes to trade along the coast. However, most Bezebek live all along the southern part of the river, with an economy based on agriculture, although any trade between the Némori or Shando and the north probably comes through Mirrepon. The Bezebek upstream from Mirrepon have five towns, all smaller than Mirrepon. Bezebek society is strongly hierarchical: each village has a headman, subordinate to the headman of the nearest of the six towns. If the six headmen see fit, they may choose a king.
The Bezebek eat grain and drink beer, and do ornate village dances to the sound of cornett-like instruments and small drums.
They sacrifice animals to their sun god, Ethpaal. When Ethpaal sleeps, he becomes the moon, and the Bezebek think it impious to look on the moon without a brief bow. To do wrong during the night is to betray Ethpaal; he will not notice the evil, but if someone prays to him and tells him of it during the day, he will be doubly angry. Therefore the Bezebek confess to the Ethpaal - if they wish - privately, before sunset, but in the larger settlements the people gather in clusters of civic booths facing the setting sun; in these cases the act of confession, although not the content, is therefore public. Confessing in the morning is shameful as it suggests you are trying to anticipate someone reporting some misdeed committed during the night, or failed to report the previous day; a person who does that becomes ritually unclean for a week and is not spoken to.
At the new moon, Ethpaal is taken to be patrolling among mankind for evil-doers. Although he never takes of men's food, each household leaves him out a lavish meal and three mugs of beer. In the morning, they share the meal within the family and praise Ethpaal.
Apart from Ethpaal, however, the Bezebek worship fruit trees. The eating of fruit (especially larger fruits) is a deeply solemn family occasion, and it is certainly impious to leave fruit unfinished, or to feed it to animals - except in the case of each community's sacred goat, who must eat nothing but fruit, and may never be sacrificed to Ethpaal.
They fight with shield and spear, sometimes on horseback.
Well I know for certain Angst and I are in the same wave, I guess whether or not azale is part of our group is entirely dependent on what azale wants to do and what everybody else is ok with. Knowing to what extent our group is trading with other groups will also help in determining how many and which Wanderwörter the language(s) will have.
A rough outline of the Shando
Starting Location:You know where.
The hallmark of Shando artistic tradition are a series of petroglyphs depicting historical and current events in highly stylized drawings. Many of these are a drawn with a single line, and painted with a rich ochre. Many shando groups use these petroglyphs as territorial markers, both informing a traveler that they are entering a new land and providing them a brief history of that particular tribe or clan.
Tradition, family, clan, honesty
The Shando believe that this world is the second stage in the souls travels towards Eshaka, perfection.
The first stage is almost utterly flawed, and souls there live in suffering and pain. It is because of this pain that babies are born crying, even as the memory of the previous world is fading.
The second world a soul is born into is ours, and it is halfway between the flawed and painful creation that is the first stage and halfway between the near perfection that is the next.
The third world is almost completely devoid of suffering, and, upon leaving it, a soul is ready to join with perfection, a state of pure bliss.
The Shando do believe that souls sometimes get waylaid for various reasons on their travels, and will haunt this world as ghosts until they are able to move on.
I have no real knowledge, but the Shando are Wave 1
Along the rivers, the Shando have settled into predominantly sedentary lifestyles, focused on limited river trade as well as agriculture, raising Millet primarily, alongside lesser quantities of oats, wheat, and fruits such as Plums, Peaches, Mangos, and fields of Raspberries.
The River Shando also raise bees and pigs, and trap fish in complex stone weirs crisscrossing the wide shallows of the rivers. The recovery of this fish is left predominantly to the domesticated otters that are to the Shando what Dogs are to many other cultures. The Otter has also begun to be used in hunting, companions able to flush out prey, and through through that, has become mans best friend.
The so called Wild Shando also depend heavily on the pig, following semi-domesticated herds of the animal. They tend to migrate between three or four seasonal sites.
Country Names: [Make a list of nation names for me to use]
Characters: [Make a list of names for me to use of people]
Place Names: [Make a list of place for me to use for notable places]
[Add anything else you want to say]
I think it might actually make more sense if you were a separate group entirely. Just now checking the distances, the strait is about 250 miles at its narrowest. While not an insurmountable obstacle, I don't think long distance trade between the two would really be viable at this time. I could be convinced, though; this is just my initial assessment of the situation.
Awesome job, can't wait to see more. Please tell me if I've got the location right:
Players in Cradle:
No, sorry - that was very confusing of me: I said southern when I meant northern. Otherwise all the stuff I said about trade with the sea makes no sense.
I mean the northern end of the river, roughly directly west of Shando; Mirrepon is to be on that squiggle of the river just upstream from the outlet into the sea.
I am following the thread even if slightly inactive. Just noting that I saw all the references to my name.
Seems like beautiful work. I admit I don't know enough phonology to immediately parse it however, so I won't make any throughout judgment about your soundscape. But 28 consonants contrary to 26 seems perfectly justified.
I am going to go through the phonemes one by one on Wikipedia when it's done, figuring out how the language really sounds.
No problem, is this now correct?
Perfect, thank you.
I guess I should make (I feel premature) posts concerning my thoughts/themes/plans.
These people are between NK and Thlayli-land, on the Highland Lake and/or along the river from thereof.
I do not have a name yet, but these people value Tradition and Moderation. They are a farming people, who have few towns or cities because they feel the most important measures of wealth is land and blood, with little respect for what may be accomplished in town life. Most households end up with several members learning crafts either by themselves, a wandering craftsman, or as part of a payment for another good or service with another household (apprenticeship?). However, due to their tradition of partible inheritance, they may form regions of higher density which rely on importing food from other blood-lands to feed itself in exchange for a greater focus on crafts. Most organizations to work together are impromptu and temporary councils, which can be considered democratic, of sorts. They generally have little patience in dealing with the foolishness of neighbors outside of common defense, marriage, and perhaps irrigation, but successful councils may become Tradition, and Tradition MUST be upheld.
In their inheritance system, all living heirs receive a single share. The Eldest receives the family home as well as all un-assigned assets. The others only receive assigned assets, generally due to perceived attachment or agreements made prior to death. This generally leads to the younger and less talented heirs, with barely any ability to work their land, to trade their lands to their "betters". Married daughters also often trade in their lands to the Eldest as a psuedo-dowry to enrich their new family. The newly landless would then seek indentured work, wander as craftsmen, adventure, or even form bands to try to win/earn lands of their own using whatever they may barter from their Eldest (or less common, more accommodating neighbors).
Although these people may be often "conquered" or migrated into by another group, they often survive simply through usefulness as proles, rare infighting, sheer breeding ability, as well as harsh and widespread revolts against perceived threats against cultural traditions by anyone who intends to impose something "unreasonable". The various warlords and barbarians may take over for some time, but their abrasive culture gives them bad lives and bad deaths, and they too will be ground beneath the wheel of fate. Although their Wheel of Fate is similar to those of the Nemori, they notably do not have a Defier figure. Some scholars may describe the difference as the "Chained Wheel", "The Mill of Fate" or the "Accepters". Would-be-defiers must either temper their expectations, leave, or be killed for besmirching traditional ways in a disrespectful manner. Change, to succeed, is generally gradual and cultural. Swift change leads to reactionary revolt, as a rule. As Tradition.
EDIT: On War.
War is not a Traditional activity. Some instability may arise when an old Patriarch with little land and too many sons dies with disputed will, but generally a traditional, almost code of law-esque set of rules applies to most situations. Between house holds, generally they would ask a mutually agreed upon third party to mediate. Even if it comes to blows, it generally falls upon chosen champions rather than both calling upon friends and allies to die for a piddling conflict.
If they are being invaded in force by an oppressive outsider, a surprising response may occur. The news of outsiders not only disrespecting tradition but also forcing their fellow People of the Wheel to die would lead to a great outcry. Many would hand off the care of their lands to trusted friends and/or family while they leave. Those with marginal land doubly so: the depopulated and dehusbanded remnants of invaded communities are ripe for starting new houselands and families. Additionally, already transient wanderers and adventures would head towards trouble, seeking to prove their worth. As they near their goal they begin to gather into councils and companies, then armies and hordes. What may initially seemed like an easy conquest and subjugation may suddenly seem like fighting against a growing flood of an entire nation, one which overwhelms almost all who manage to rile up such a response in the first place.
EDITEDIT: Google docs go HERE. Also, they are wave 1.
Quick notes: Monoliths to define land boundaries. Language uses both mouth sound and hand movements. "Arm speak" for long distance communication.
Separate names with a comma.