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Online Translation Tool Questions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Ancient Europe' started by JoJoMcQuto, May 2, 2014.

  1. JoJoMcQuto

    JoJoMcQuto Chieftain

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    Hello Pie,

    I love the depth of your mod and the amount of thought that you have put into it. Anyways, I have been making some minor corrections to some of the English translations using your excellent online Translation Tool and was wondering if there is a reason why you used the:

    - Fire Service building name instead of Vigiles Urbani
    - Ivory resource name instead of Elephants

    I was going to change them myself but since they are more of a drastic change than what I have been doing, I'd better check with you. Also since most of the changes I have been doing are capitalizing the English building and unit names, would you like me to do the same with the other languages?

    Thanks again for such an awesome mod!
     
  2. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    thx jojo!

    your help and the help of you all out there (esp. Spain) is very important for me, so thank you very, very much.

    -) Vigiles Urbani: because nobody can image what is meant. It's matter of taste

    -) Ivory: because NOT the elephants were traded, the ivory was (like walrus ivory). In PAE you can't build elephants with the bonus resource anymore. Only with stables, which are created by local elephants.
     
  3. Manarch

    Manarch Chieftain

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    Hello back!


    I haven’t progressed for the last two weeks, due to… immersion work in the winter mountains.
    Despite that, I drew up a list of points for which I would like to have external opinions. Thereafter comes a list of changes or propositions I made, but that are, let’s say debatable.

    It’s only a reference list, so maybe not everything is worth discussing. If you think I made a mistake, I will fix it to a preferable option.


    Regarding words' choices:

    • Trade wagon / wagon commercial: although I can’t find written references for it, “wagon” in French is sometimes used indifferently for any vehicle on wheels (according to what I heard in my life). Nonetheless, it sounds like an anachronism since the most ordinary use is for (train) wagon, even if the word “wagon” predates the industrial train (also tricky because “train” applies in a dated way to any kind of convoy/group going from A to B). Speaking of which, I have multiple ideas: chariot de commerce (a bit stiff), chariot commercial (unnatural) and other variants… So I think I would prefer to metonymize: “convoi commercial”.
    • Lance bearer / Porte-Lance: isn’t the technical word “doryphore”? I don’t think it would be to obscure.
    • Episcopal court / tribunal épiscopal: the official name in the catholic Church is “officialité épiscopale”, although I wouldn’t recommend it for fear of anachronism and incomprehension.
    • Episcopal see / palais épiscopal: “palais” if the important point is the lavish construction, “siège” if it’s the powerful institution.
    • Bock saddle / selle en bois is quite difficult. Still, I propose “selle de bât”, if the idea is a saddle without tree / arçon.
    • Recurve bow / arc à double coubure : the trouble is mainly with “archer à double courbure”. The synecdoche doesn’t seem to flow well, unlike “archer composite” for recurvebowman. Despite the anachronism of it, I suggest “arc classique” and “archer classique”. I’m unsatisfied with that.
    • Briton / Breton: I’ve replaced all occurrences of “britannique” in french by “breton”, for the sake of coherence.
    • Balearic slinger / frondeur baléare : grammatically correct, but little-used adjective. Maybe “frondeur des Baléares”?
    • Hippodrom / cirque: as you know, the two words aren’t interchangeable in French. Nothing to replace here, just wanted to point that out.
    • Camel archer / archer sur chameau: “archer chamelier“ would be more classy. Another videogame opted for only “chameau” in a previous installment, then for “archer de chamellerie”.
    Regarding more global choices to make:


    • Camel: what are the animals intended to be? The graphics depict in fact dromedaries (except one). Not to make a mountain of the issue, but the difference is kind of drilled into French children. I won’t lie, that bout of education might be disregarded latter in life. So is generality or precision more important?
    • Flat land / Terrain plat: it should be “plaine” (opposed to hills), but that may induce a confusion with the word in BTS for the non-grassland flat terrain, that are otherwise called “steppe” in PIE.
    • Savannah: the object description speaks about palm tree / palmier but I think it looks more like baobab tree.
    • Sometimes, flat and open lands seems ambiguous to me. Does the first refers only to non-mountainous land (then terrain plat or plaine) and the second to non-forested area (then terrain découvert =/= terrain boisé)?
    • A synonym for “spadassin” is “épéiste”, if wanting for a little variety in units’ name.
    • Very big troubles with Javelineer / lanceur de javelot. “Tirailleur” is both javelineer and skirmisher. So “javelin thrower / lanceur de javelot” or “skirmisher / escarmoucheur” could be used to replace the unit or the object.
    • Is a slave sold for 10-40 or 1-40 at the slave market?
    • Finally, do you recommend the use of gender and plural tags? I would make use of them, if only not to be, like in the base BTS game, invited to "quake before the grandeur of the Babylonian womens.”
    Apart from all that, there are other cases where I’m not convinced of what I proposed, but they may depend on taste or skills in translation so, alea jacta est, until someone have a better idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  4. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Great Manarch! :hug:

    Regarding words' choices:

    - Trade wagon: ok let's say convoi commercial. I don't know what fits better in French. In German it is "Handelskarren". A wooden cart pulled by horses or oxen. Even in english I don't even know if trading cart fits better.
    - Lance bearer / Porte-Lance: in this case I mean the lance you don't throw away. A spear can be thrown and is thinner and shorter than a lance (perhaps). Take what you think is better for French players.
    - Episcopal court: hm.. it should be like a courthouse, but not the place of executions. I want to show that the judge is a priest and not a guy from the royal house anymore.
    - Episcopal see / palais épiscopal: take the siège ;)
    - Bock saddle / selle en bois is quite difficult. :D yes, I took this from the french wikipedia, but I don't know if this is correct. Take “selle de bât”
    - Recurve bow / arc à double coubure: classique is not detailed enough I think. I would take archer à double courbure
    - Briton / Breton: hm.. I shortly read that the Bretons are emigrants from the British island. Britanni. But in French I also can only find the word Bretons. Strange because in German the Britonen (Briten) are different from the Bretonen (Bretagne). But yes, if in French there is no problem to mix this up, call them Bretons.
    - Balearic slinger / frondeur baléare : frondeur des Baléares? Yes, why not.
    - Hippodrom / cirque: the two words aren’t interchangeable in French. ok ;)
    - Camel archer / archer sur chameau: “archer chamelier“ would be more classy. ok ;)

    Regarding more global choices to make:


    - Camel: no problem, take what you prefer to say. for us Austrians/Germans we say Kamel for both althoug we know the difference between a dromedar and a camel and know that most of those animals are dromedars. But the word camel is so naturalized for us. :D
    - Flat land / Terrain plat: it should be “plaine” (opposed to hills): isn't steppe a french word too: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe ?
    - Savannah: I mean this: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forêts,_terres_boisées_et_broussailles_méditerranéennes (in German it's the Trockensavanne)
    - Sometimes, flat and open lands seems ambiguous to me. no both the non-mountainous land (terrain plat or plaine)
    - A synonym for “spadassin” is “épéiste”, if wanting for a little variety in units’ name: of course! change wherever you want.
    - Very big troubles with Javelineer / lanceur de javelot. Tirailleur/lanceur de javelot/escarmoucheur: feel free. I have some special units instead of a skirmisher, perhaps you can use different terms in different CIVs?
    - slave sold: 10-40
    - Finally, do you recommend the use of gender and plural tags? Yes of course! But in my info texts, I always try to use the singular word "... the unit XY ...". if a unit is used for plural, then it would be great! but don't mind, if you play first to see if it's necessary for a unit.

    Apart from all that, there are other cases where I’m not convinced of what I proposed, but they may depend on taste or skills in translation so, alea jacta est, until someone have a better idea.
    => Yes, my opinion too.
     
  5. Manarch

    Manarch Chieftain

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    90%, 0,9 , 90%, it’s the 90%... :rotfl:It feels good to see this number. And doubly that it’s achieved before the official announcement of PAE VI.
    I thank you for your answers, and I’m grateful that you take the time to clarify my interrogations. Alas, I still have questions concerning translations.

    Only the civilopedias entries remain now. I’m unsure if I want to systematically translate them all, maybe first the ones that feel like needing a priority explanation. In which case, what would be preferable: translating the german / english version, snatching the french version of wiki or building an original version from different sources?
    I favor the later, but I know it would be considerably longer.

    Until then and for now, I hope than I did more helping than harming, and that I have been worthy of the one(s) responsible for the previous translations in french, that I repeat are really nice.


    Now, on to the small things:

    • Archestratos or Archestartos ? I’m certain of its spelling in french, but not assured enough to conclude in german or english. So is it a case of different syllabic order or of misspellings?
    • Free citizens / citoyens libres: I would like to put « affranchi » everywhere, but does it always refers to the special intermediary status of freed slave or do slaves become full-right citizens?
    • Wertsachen: Jeder Kampf bringt bis zu 1/10 von den Baukosten der gegnerischen Einheit ein “ : do you get 1/10 gold in fighting the unit or does it cost you 1/10 to fight it ? Playing tells me it’s the former but I would like a confirmation.
    • Siegreiche Einheiten hinterlassen ihre Kultur auf dem Plot. So kann es vorkommen, dass benachbarte gegnerische Felder zur eigenen Kultur überspringen " I’m sorry that I also don’t understand. Does it mean that the nearby plots of an enemy culture may change to the culture of the unit fighting on them?
    • Dezimierung: does the decimated unit lose 10% of its HP, its last ranks of promotion, or both?
    • Wissenschaftler: I hesitate between savant and philosophe, depending on the case. Firstly, what is preferable for the Great Philosopher?
    • Baumeister: same between bâtisseur and ingénieur, on most cases.
    Only observations, no intervention should be required on those points:


    • Bocksaddle: time clears the mind, hum? I got what it was and the correct answer would be “arçon de selle”.
    • Clarifying what wasn’t fitting with “wagon/chariot de commerce”, I don’t think the tech. is meant to imply that a special type of wagon is invented at this point but rather that bigger commercial expedition takes place, with organised caravans of chariots. Please notify if I’m mistaken.
    • I revised slightly the swordsman types now it looks like this:
    Krummschwertkämpfer --> Spadassin avec cimeterre --> Sabreur au cimeterre
    Kurzschwertkämpfer --> Spadassin avec lame courte --> Épéiste à lame courte
    Berittener Schwertkämpfer --> Spadassin monté --> Spadassin monté
    Langschwertkämpfer --> Spadassin --> Spadassin
    Schwertkämpfer --> Unités équipées d'une épée --> Épéiste (excepted the generic category)

    And that’s all of these guys.


    • Savannah: okay I found the compromise “brousses”. It’s at once a terrain with low trees, a moderately obstructed terrain, the african/australian dry forested lands, the african/indonesian jungles, the underdeveloped and/or impenetrable areas... Sorry, in fewer words: At once savannah and the dry low vegetation with a pinch of wilderness and hidden places not entirely inextricable. So it works for the western Mediterranean “garrigue” the african savannah, the hills of Asia Minor... (I’m proud of this one)
    • Breton: for a bit of explanation, I’d say that in french, breton applies both to the ancient era tribes and to the people from the Middle Ages onward, although we know they’re not interchangeable. :mischief: By assimilation, people nowadays on the british Isles are sometimes called breton, but it’s more an affectionate/literary address. Britannique is rather a geographical description that fit to present people living there, and used to describe “the people of the ancient eras that lived in that space”, and the citizens of the nation of Great Britain. My apologies for the confusion in my language.
    • There may still be work to smooth out the words used in the description of Grades, Ranks, Promotion, Status, as they’re a little mixed in french right now. I’ll work on that latter.:sleep:
    And then, the bigger things:

    • Schaukämpfer und Gladiatoren : I’m unable to find anything relevant for Schaukämpfer in french. The idea is that they’re proto-gladiators, doing exhibition fights, that’s it? But if I understood correctly, the origins of gladiators are ritual fights rather than show fights, no? Which option should I rather take to find an equivalence?

    • Leadership / Führerschaft: the former proposition was Leadership in french too, but I believe that the word isn’t integrated enough to fit here. It may have too much of a managerial overtone, an etic affixing to an ancient phenomenon. Incidentally, I’m mindful of the development of new concepts in one’s language, as a french (and you know how we are on the question of language) but also as a breton whose language skipped half a century of modernisation, leaving us with a ginormous gap for all modern apparatus. In the back of my mind stays half a wish to offer PAE a breton version. :)

    REGardless, I suggest “Société lignagère”.
    In a few words, it’s the concept of an entire tribe binded by a hypothetical affiliation to a proto-family, through a common ancestor real or not. It implies hierarchical positioning on the fields of worth, authority, possessions, dwellings... defined by justification of the closeness to the primary line and applied by assumption of authority.
    Interestingly, it may not be related to a state but speak already of a population. I’ve almost rousseau-ist vibes about that, like the differentiation through the shedding of nature. In other words : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Société_lignagère

    About its inclusion in PAE, it suits the Tribal council and its happiness effect by virtue of creating a hierarchy and a feeling of belonging to a solid community, as well as the apparition of a Palace in the process of singularisation (?) of the tribe. The side that refers to the qualities of a leader is a little less obvious sadly. However, it seems like an intermediate step toward true dynasties of rulers (doctrine Dynastie), which may be interesting and an appropriate simplification in the scope of PAE (although I wouldn’t dare to imply such a thing when discussing with experts irl).
    I feel it would be a correct equivalent to the english /german concept, if slightly different.

    If you have the sentiment it isn’t adapted, I have alternatives:

    -Supériorité: very simple, someone acquire the inherent upper hand and rules over its tribesman. So then it’s fine for expressing the emerging characteristics of a superior leader.

    -Vertus du dirigeant/ du chef: the same implication as before, but with a more definitive overtone, a more philosophical connotation.

    -Chefferie: describes the form of tribal state where the leader is chosen according to sacred designs, or prestige, or coercion (Wikipédia), covering a limited territory and also the place of residence of the leader ( as in chiefdom). I believe it clashes less with the “quality of the leader” side but clashes more with the implication of a Tribal council, a Palace and the promotion of Allegiance.

    -Leadership: if it must be so, I don’t want to be obtuse.:hug:


    Well that was long. I think I’ll take occasional looks into the translation already made, for corrections. But the main point for me is that I got rid of the “english garden”, so my work is done.:p

    I want to try out PAE VI, but I still have a civ to lead to victory. Are the V’s saves compatible with PAE VI?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  6. brettschmitt

    brettschmitt Chieftain

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    As a winner you get up to 1/10th of the defeated unit's building costs

    After a won fight your culture may spread on and around the battlefield
     
  7. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    That's true! I am very, very proud of you and excited you do such a good job!


    Most of them I copied from the web. Mainly wikipedia. Snipped the most important or interesting infos and paste them. But sometimes I found infos on kids history pages. The short explanations with all necessary infos are really the BEST! those are my favorite.
    Lots of other things I wrote down from books and translated them.

    So as you want. You don't really need to translate them to French because, it's just the pedia.
    It would be amazing if this infos would be in all languages too. French players would love you!

    Ha, I'm sure you did your best.


    You'r right. It's Archestratos. a misspelling. I've changed it already.

    hm... they are fill-right citizens

    yes, as brett said: you earn: unit costs divided with 10

    oh, no, sorry. it concerns only the plot of battle. no surrounding plots. I've changed it:
    17) Kultur: Siegreiche Einheiten hinterlassen Kulturpunkte auf dem siegreichen Plot. Daher kann es vorkommen, dass dieser Plot zur eigenen Kultur überspringt. Dies hält aber nur an, sofern der Plot im kulturellen Einfluss einer eigenen Stadt liegt.

    Both.

    Hm. as you want. in german a Wissenschaftler is a more modern term. so I prefer Philosoph.

    That's similar. Ingenieur is a more modern term, I think.

    hah, you are crazy :D (in a positive way)

    ehm.. it's the new unit. to use oxen or horses for carts to trade goods.


    Wonderful ;)

    Show fighter (in french words) sounds good! they are of course used for ritual fights too.
    yes they are proto-gladiators. But they weren't called gladiators. they were just animateurs (not really for killing each other). in some cases, eg. ritual fight after a burial, to harm the pain of the mourners, they had a bad end.

    uff.... hoho... crazy...
    take the term that fits best to the early stage of human being.
    I don't know if societe lignagere is a too modern term.

    Amazing!

    No sorry. PAE VI is technically completely different :D
    too many changes. too many add-ons. much more fun. Guaranteed 100%.
     
  8. brettschmitt

    brettschmitt Chieftain

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    tbh, we should call it a "Philisoph" too in the german version.
    As I'm thinking about it, "Wissenschfaftler" (scientist) is a quite modern term ;)
     
  9. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    oh damn. I just see that I named the unit Great Philosopher, but I forgot to change it in all those info texts :D will do that...
     
  10. Manarch

    Manarch Chieftain

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    Thanks Brett for the help!

    As for the rest, Pie, you’re right, I found Leadership anachronistic, but Société lignagère is lacking in similar ways, being a subsequent description of a fact when the game requires a diegetic term. Then, the winner must not be any of the previous propositions, but rather Principe d’autorité. It’s simple, it looks serious with its 2 words (oh I like this kind of argumentation), it makes a nice bridge toward Staatenbildung, it sounds like a philosophical concept, usw.

    For Schaukämpfe, the trouble is that I don’t find anything appropriate for a period predating the Renaissance. I’m afraid the failing is on my part. Although, I have decided that Munériste seems adapted. Like the fighters in the munus before it became ludus. It’s hedging with the issue, but I found french translators of videogames to often use this kind of diverting distinction. Warning, the word doesn’t seem to have an official existence, but let’s use the source of « I think I have heard that one day in my Latin studies » (I’m such a competent researcher).

    God, still problems with the commercial cart. I have the feeling that I miss something of the basics here. If I may, as I haven’t this kind of literature nearby, I’ll have to ask you about the history of carts, or for a source. Does any sort of cart exist before this tech’s discovery? As in, are carts specially and primarily invented to do inter-cities trade? Wasn’t there any cart before that, for I don’t know, local transportations of goods? Although I believe enough time ought to have been spent on this point already; my brain is totally disfunctioning on this now, don’t be dragged down with me please.

    On a more pleasant note, I have the same experience as you with kids’ books. The information they contain are often factual, pertinent, very to the point and accurate (for its time of publication). It happened that I took a look in my old books to refresh my knowledge on... sugar production from beets for example. So I’ve drained some books from the local library this afternoon, to take inspiration if needed.

    Side note, I’m under the impression that Illustrious People are sometimes named from the datas of the base game, at least in V.

    All the best to you!
     
  11. brettschmitt

    brettschmitt Chieftain

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    There are 3 kinds of carts:
    - for Trading
    - for Replacing Recources
    - for Healing/Supply/Transport of ships

    The really earliest cart probably was a pushcart, invented by a farmer somewhere ;)


    [edut] btw... Supply waggon:
    I'd suggest to let the "Fuhrwerk" (dk what it is in english) also transports the ships.
    It's just not intentional to have a supply waggon, that usually is responsible for caring about the army, suddenly becomes a major "Heavy Transportation Expert"
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  12. Manarch

    Manarch Chieftain

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    Entries CONCEPT_BONUSVERBREITUNG modified regarding spreads of cattle (cow, pig, sheep) on flatland and hills and absence of horses spreading on hills.

    Entries PROJECT_SILKROAD_STRATEGY changed to mention the extra trade road.
     

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