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Only two civs remain...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Phoenix1595, May 25, 2007.

  1. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Do you honestly believe that Sweden is less happy than Gambia, the Philippines, Panama, Cuba and all those other magnificent countries listed before it? Because if you do, I have a good bridge from Brooklyn to Manhattan to sell to you.
     
  2. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Hehe...this is why Sweden is more pist than all of those countries. :lol:
    :joke:
     
  3. methane

    methane Warlord

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    Happiness has little to do with social development. Happiness isn't about having more, it's about being happy with what you have.
     
  4. Saim

    Saim King

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    Dutchking, there are 3 remaining. And whoever said that 'there is Siam, Vietnam and Khmer as SE Asian civs', there is also Sri Vijaya and Mahapajit.

    I'm hoping for (bold is favored):
    Moors or Ethiopia
    Siam, Khmer, Sri Vijaya Mahapajit or Vietnam
    Hittites or one of the above

    And another Turkic or Hinduic civilization would be nice.

    And whoever compared Carthage to America and Byzantium: there was never a unified Phoenician state, it was similiar to the Greek city-states, Canaan and Carthage being two of them.
     
  5. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    As a native Swede, I can tell you that people in general are quite happy to live here. And I'm not too impressed by the "I got plenty of nuthin', but nuthin' is plenty for me" argument. Also, of course, there are all those other polls and surveys that put Sweden among the top 5 countries when it comes to happiness. It all depends on which questions you ask and how you choose to interpret them.
     
  6. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

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    Post deleted.
     
  7. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    Because then we'd need to have Denmark, Norway and Iceland (or at least two of them) as well.

    The Franks split up into three "nations": West-Frankia -> (West-)France, East-Frankia -> (West-)Germany and Middle-Frankia -> Friesland, Netherlands, Burgund, Provence/Savoy and North-Italy

    So if we'd have the Franks in, then we'd have also 3+ Nations (France, Germany, Netherlands) that could be called v2 versions of the Francs.

    The same is true about the Celts of course: England (representing Scottland and Ireland as well*blaech*), France and (southern) Germany (Raetia/Switzerland).

    So if you'd want to be fair to the "european main tribes" you'd have to do the following:

    4 main groups: Germanics, Celts, Slavs, Romanics
    2 small groups: Greecs, Baltics

    And thats skipping the finno-ugrians, the basks, etruscians and so on.

    The representation is as follows:

    Germanics: Germany, Vikings, (Netherlands)
    Slavs: Russia
    Romanics: Rome, Spain, (Portugal)
    Celts: Celts

    Greece: Greece, (Byzantium)

    Bastards: England (Anglo-Saxons and Normans ->Germanics, Roman Roots and Normans -> Romanics, representation of Scottland and Ireland -> Celts), France (Gallo-Romans -> Romanics + Celts, Normans -> Germanics)

    Now thats 12 civs out of 34. 35% of the civs, representing 11% of the world population (lets not even start talking about area).

    But IF we would decide to overrepresent us europeans even more, then we should look for the missing languages/cultures, and not add even more on the already present ones.

    OK, lets take a closer look at Europe anyway, shall we?

    There are 680 million europeans. Out of those are:

    ~ 250 mio slavs -> Russia (3 leader)
    ~ 125 mio germanics -> Germany (2 leader), Vikings (1 leader), Netherlands (1 leader)
    ~ 125 mio romanics -> Rome (2 leader), Spain (1 leader), Portugal (1 leader)
    ~ 15 mio celts (Wales, Scottland, Ireland and Bretagne only) -> Celts (1 leader)
    ~ 10 mio greek -> Greece (1 leader), Byzantium (1 leader).

    ~ 40 mio english (germanic/romanic/celtic mix) -> England (3 leader)
    ~ 55 mio french (romanic/celtic/germanic mix) -> France (2 leader)

    ~ 55 mio others (Finns, Hungarians, Estonians, Basques and so on) ...

    If we use the germanic and romanic representation as standard 125 mio -> 3 civs and 4 leader) then we'd come to:

    Slavs (250 mio): 6 civs, 8 leader -> underrepresented
    Germanics (125 mio): 2 civs, 4 leader -> ok
    Romanics (125 mio): 2 civs, 4 leader -> ok
    Celts (15 mio): 0.33 civ, 0.5 leader -> overrepresented
    Greek (10 mio): 0.25 civ, 0.33 leader -> overrepresented
    French (55 mio): 1.3 civ, 1.8 leader -> ok
    English: (40 mio): 1 civ, 1.3 leader -> overrepresented
    Others: (60 mio): 1.5 civs, 2 leader -> underrepresented

    Non-Europeans (5,300 mio): 125 civs, 170 leaders -> extremely underrepresented.

    My suggestion:

    if it is deemed necessary to add european civs, it should be:

    Slavs
    Poland
    Austria-Hungary + Bohemia (3 leader, one of each nationality)
    Basques or another non-indo-european / non-finno-ugrian civ

    But maybe priority should be given to non-european nations first, right?

    China: 30 civs with 40 leader
    India: 24 civs with 32 leader

    ;)
     
  8. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    i liked your post, i think...

    But yes East europe is under represented and Austria isn't gonna help represent the other non russian slavs. There just another Germanic Group.
     
  9. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

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    If you read a paragraph in the HPI, it says "The Happy Planet Index (HPI) is an index of human well-being and environmental impact, introduced by the new economics foundation (nef), in July 2006. The index is designed to challenge well-established indices of countries’ development, such as Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and the Human Development Index (HDI), which are seen as not taking sustainability into account. In particular, GDP is seen as inappropriate, as the ultimate aim of most people is not to be rich, but to be happy and healthy and have little impact on the environment."

    Rich does not mean happy. Development does not mean happy
     
  10. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    In my world, happiness is:
    * A long and healthy life, as measured by life expectancy at birth.
    * Knowledge, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weight) and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weight).
    * A decent standard of living, as measured by the log of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP) in USD.
    And Sweden is nr. 5 if we sum that up. Vanuatu (the happiest country in the world, my ass) is nr. 119.
    For the record, Sweden is walking up the list.

    But I do not wish to make some fuzz about me having said Sweden is one of the happiest countries in the world, because it is on my standards. Apparently not only my standards, but Wikipedia's also. :p

    Bastian-Bux, I think you're making this too ethnic. You see that the Greeks did oh so much more than the Slavic nations ever did, still they have 1 leader (2 with Pericles) and the Slavs have already 3.
    You know that it were Germanic (Swedish Russia, Baltic), Greco (Byzantine Balkan) and Roman (Roman Balkan etc) people who owned the land that later became Slavic. I'm not saying Slavic people have a smaller history - their achievements aren't as famous in the western world. Why? Because the others had better conditions, maybe. I don't know..
     
  11. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    No, it doesn't. If rich meant happy that list would be totally different. It would be like this:
    1. Luxembourg
    2. Norway
    3. Qatar
    4. Iceland
    5. Ireland

    But it isn't, is it?
    Is:
    * A long and healthy life, as measured by life expectancy at birth.
    * Knowledge, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weight) and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weight).
    * A decent standard of living, as measured by the log of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP) in USD.

    All standards of how rich you are? And once again, I say: Sweden is nr. 5 on that list, blablabla.
     
  12. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    Arronax, what you miss is:

    while the Swedish GDP is "unsustainable" in that it uses a lot of lumber for producing furniture and such (which is counted as wasting resources, and thus inherently evil, and can't make people happy), its fairly "sustainable" compared with frex Vanatu (the #1 in the HPI).

    Why?

    Because while Sweden will have an almost uncontested european monopoly on lumber, once the global warming finished off the central european forests, Vanatu will have a very valuable number of sub-surface tropical-beach housing areas.

    Yes, I'm sarcastic.

    I don't want to lower the value of the HPI as a tool to point out resource wastement and faults of our ecologicaly unsustainable economy.

    But you'll have many problems to find a country

    a) with as high a living standard as Sweden
    b) where living conditions are (still) as equaly distributed
    c) as ecology inclined a gouvernment and population (and you've got to remember that the current swedish gouvernment is liberal-conservative, not green)
    d) where people generaly are rather happy with their country and their live, give and take the north-european tendency to critizise everything)

    While the HDI is overvaluing the importance of the GDP on human happyness, the HPI is (majorly) overvaluing the importance of CO2 per person production.

    People ain't "unhappy" because their economy is fuelled by CO2 (else all us-americans would have to commit suizide). And honestly, even giving ecological thinking: the swedish eco/nomy/logy is much longer sustainable then the "economology" of many countries ranking higher up the HPI. One reason being, that swedish lumber is regrowing, while saudi-arabian oil, or "fast-harvested" us-american lumber isn't.
     
  13. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    could we get back on topic?
     
  14. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

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    Well you can live a long life, in a comfy upper middle class home tucked in the suburban centers of Stockholm with a good education and be totally unhappy because, you are unmarried and lonely, have no friends and stuck with a dead-end job you can't quit till your 60.

    I believe is another big factor, most of the top 40 or so seem to be quite religious, Catholic Latin America and Phillipines, Islamic Morroco, Indonesia and Maldieves and Buddhist Vietnam, Sri Lanka.
     
  15. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    @Skippy: ^^, my post about civs included a bit more then just a little sarcasm. Or do you think I'd honestly ask for 54 chinese and indian civs? ^^

    But to formulate it a bit less sarcastic:

    even if we assume that a prejudice pro (west-european) civs is acceptable, the representation of other world-areas should be a bit better.

    An achievable suggestion could be:

    "Western Europe": 1 leader per 30 mio inhabitants
    Other Europeans + Near East, North Africa: 1 leader per 60 mio inhabitants
    Others: 1 per 250 mio inhabitants

    That would come down to:

    WE: ~12 leader (Germany+Austria 3, Italy 2, France 2, England 2, Spain+Portugal 2, Benelux 1, Scandinavia 0.7, Greece 0.3) -> Germany 2, Austria 1, Rome 2, France 2, England 2, Spain 1, Portugal 1, Netherlands 1, Vikings 1, Greece 1, Byzantium 1, Celts 1

    EE: ~5 leader (Russia 2.5, Ukraine/Kievan Rus 0.8, Poland-Lithuania 0.6, others 1)

    Near East, North Africa ... 5 leaders

    China: 5 leader
    India: 4 leader
    US of A: 1 leader

    others: 10 leader

    All together 42+ leader. So while West-Europe even using this prejudice will be represented enough, this isn't true for eastern europe (2-3 non-russian civs/leaders). And despite my dislike for the nationalistic polish propaganda in this forum, Poland-Lithuania!!! should be one of them.

    The near east and north africa is represented enough using this prejudice, and given the new additions from BtS, is even closing up to western europe.

    Whats missing is a better representation of India and China (the China scenario in Warlords was a joke, wasn't it?).

    And while the MAya and Native americans ARE a start ... there could surely be more, also for africa and south-east asia and australo-oceania.
     
  16. aronnax

    aronnax Let your spirit be free

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  17. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Why did you put my name up there? Anyway, I think the last two civs are going to be:
    Hitties-Did they announce them already?
    Vietnam/Siam-Or another southeast asian civ.
    Austria/Eastern European Civ-I don't think Poland will make it in, so maybe some other Eastern European country. :dunno:
    Personally I'd like to see Austria, I don't really care how many Western European civs are in there already. :yumyum:
     
  18. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    :D

    Now, I'm pretty sure that's a typo, but ironically, it's also the best way to describe modern-day Sweden. :goodjob:
     
  19. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    Naturally, the other unrevealed civ should be Finland, with leaders C.G.E.Mannerheim (Cha/Pro) and U.K.Kekkonen (Cha/Org). The UB will be a sauna (+3 :) and +3:health:, replaces Aqueduct) and the UU a Hakkapelita curassier or a Jääkäri (Jaeger) infranty unit. :D

    But propably it will be Siam and either Hittites or Assyrians. Which is weird since I'm sure more Finnish people will buy BTS than Assyrians. :hmm:
     
  20. Lacaixa

    Lacaixa Warlord

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    Bastian- Bux
    The population of England at the last census was 50.7 million. Not 40 million as you stated. This is out of GB population of 61.2 million and a British Isles population of 65.6 million.
     

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