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Oooo Vancouver, how come you taste so good?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BvBPL, Feb 4, 2015.

  1. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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  2. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Plus at least this way the heroin he's getting is (presumably) not cut like most street stuff is.
     
  3. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    How effective has Vancouver's liberal approach to heroin addiction been in reducing its use? I wonder if there's an objective analysis written neither by prohibitionists nor drug legalization fetishists.

    [fwiw I'm pro legalizing drugs as well. It's just that some people make it a personal crusade and they annoy the crap out of me]
     
  4. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Does it particularly matter if consumption stays or decreases? i.e. Is the goal to reduce consumption or reduce the impact of consumption?
     
  5. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I am pro-legalization but I don't think giving out free drugs addresses the problem.

    And why do heroin addicts get to have all the fun? Why not free pot?
     
  6. Snerk

    Snerk Finger Lickin' Good

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    I'm guessing this will be administrated to established addicts and not teenagers looking for a new hobby. And heroin addicts will get their heroin no matter what. Though probably largely through prostitution, theft or other criminal behavior. Not to mention drug dealers profiting from this. So giving them it for free is IMO the lesser evil by far.
     
  7. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    The latter, collateral harm reduction.
     
  8. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Well heroin is a pretty heavy and destructive drug, so I suppose decreasing its consumption is also a goal, even if the immediate objective is just reducing the impact of consumption (Ie, stopping criminal behavior, the spread of diseases, poisoning with cheap versions of the drug, etc).

    If heroin consumption increased significantly in Vancouver during the many years in which it adopted a liberal approach, I think it's fair to say the approach has been at least a partial failure.
     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'm pretty sure the goal is twofold:

    1. To try to reduce usage overall
    2. To try to care for those who are severely addicted

    It's a public health issue. This part of the plan seems to focus on #2, but it'd be silly if they weren't trying to do this as part of a larger plan to reduce overall usage.
     
  10. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Because:

    a) weed isn't one of the most chemically addictive products known to man
    b) weed isn't routinely cut on the street in such a way that dramatically increases the likelihood of overdose
     
  11. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    There's only an increased risk of overdose if the addict accustomed to cut heroin suddenly and unknowingly encounters uncut heroin. No?

    (Leaving aside the possibly toxic effects of the cutting agent, that is.)
     
  12. NetGear

    NetGear King

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    Well this policy is good on its own without reducing consumption. Its not really going to increase consumption. I mean no one is really excited over qualifying for food stamp when they lose their jobs homes and what not.
     
  13. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Still don't see why it is being offered for free.

    'If we don't give it to them they'll harm society' is a pretty lame argument. It pretty much explains how we use welfare to keep certain elements of society quiet & complacent.

    I'm not closed to being sold on this. Especially if they are providing a helluvalot more than just free drugs (therapy, coaching, whatever) but if all they offer is a quiet little place to get one's fix, I'm not sure what the longterm value is.
     
  14. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    another choice is a jail cell for stealing
     
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Well, there are many goal-posts, but you covered that with 'partial'. So, I'm agreeing with you. It'll be important to measure the right thing. If "more heroin" is merely because any specific heroin user is living longer, it's not really a problem.

    I think the major metrics will be (a) number of new users and (b) crimes committed by users. Those would be real things to watch. The fiscal conservative in me would appreciate lower net medical costs per addict, too.

    In general, I like this, mainly 'cause it's an experiment that needed to happen.
     
  16. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Moderator

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    I don't really see a better argument (you know, apart from the 'human dignity' or 'not being a society of psychopaths' one) for the government providing anything than that the cost of giving it out is less than the cost of not giving it out. Yes, we give out welfare because we're not all horrible people, but there's also the pragmatic argument that everyone's got to keep body and soul together somehow, and it's better that we give our money out in taxes and job centres than at knifepoint. The average cost of keeping someone in prison is much greater (roughly twice as great) than the average wage in this country.
     
  17. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    While a repeat experiment for Canada this actually rests on quite some data from Europe, in fact supervised injection heroin (SIH) treatment for refractive addiction is quite well established - the Wiki page on [wiki=Heroin-assisted_treatment]HAT[/wiki] is actually quite nice, better still and I would say recommended reading on the topic is this PDF they link to.

    A new thing i learned is that the UK actually has legalized prescription heroin for unsupervised consumption by addicts since the 1920s... I doubt that the clinic referenced in the OP is going that way and would expect supervised use to be what they are doing.

    Some highlights:
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    There are people out there who will look at that and say: "But uhhh those are like two completely different countries man, that doesn't make sense, you can't apply knowledge learned in Europe to North America, don't be CRAZY"
     
  19. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    So the results in Europe are inconclusive, leaning on the positive.
     
  20. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It suggests further experimentation, so it's a good call.
     

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