Open border

Moi Magnus

Emperor
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
1,867
In the current beta, open border are quite difficult to obtain.
It is due to the AI being more able to see when open border are useful or not.
However, being blocked by a friend without open border is not really fun, so here are the questions :
+ Should the trade AI accept to sell open border more often, but at higher price when not really interested ? (Rejecting open borders, and selling open borders at 20gpt is not the same thing)
+Should we buff the bonuses given when opening your border to others ?
 
I mean I literally never open my borders to anyone I don't need to when pursuing many strats. If someone wants to get through my borders and I don't let them it cuases them issues, which is good for me, especially with almost 0 opportunity cost.

To the people complaining about not being able to go where they want: That's the point. If you're at war with someone and my borders matter, I'm only opening them to who I want to win.

Basically my point is that people are complaining about the AI behaving humanly, so as far as I'm concerned the solution need to be changing the value of offering open borders rather than lombotimizing the AI.

Personally I think it might make sense to allow your troops to enter closed borders, but suffer attrition and possibly increased maintenance costs for every turn ended in closed territory. (As well as a diplo-hit.)

That might be too hard to code though.
 
If I'm not mistaken, open borders also affect whether someone can send archaeologists to your lands, which is also a deterrent to opening borders even to friends. Same about receiving tourism modifiers, I'm not negotiating reciprocating open borders with someone if I'm not trying to influence that civ.
 
There is a price for everything, and if open border deals can scale while being aware of the potential dangers of tourism/military, it would be better than the current system. That's a hard thing to ask, since I am guessing that there weren't any functions handling that before.
 
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Prior to the current patch, the AI provided cheap OB’s, short of denouncement. Humans, on the other hand, were more stingy about it. To correct this imbalance after a few posts on it, we now have a system where, by the time OB’s are essential, pretty much only friends will give them to you.

The most problematic aspect of this is naval movement in the late game. In RL most sea routes are open. But in this patch, it is often impossible to move naval units from one side of your empire to the other in the late game, due to closed borders. The only existing solution is being Friends with many, which is usually impossible by that point.

These are the solutions I see:
  • restore the status quo: the easy way to replace something game-breaking with something imbalanced.
  • negotiable terms: free for friends, impossible after denouncement, somewhere appropriate for everyone else. (Sidebar: one way to cut out the past imbalance could be to only allow mutual OB’s.)
  • different rules for water: this is where the game-breaking problem lies, but adjustments like a surcharge may be impossible to code.
 
Prior to the current patch, the AI provided cheap OB’s, short of denouncement. Humans, on the other hand, were more stingy about it. To correct this imbalance after a few posts on it, we now have a system where, by the time OB’s are essential, pretty much only friends will give them to you.

The most problematic aspect of this is naval movement in the late game. In RL most sea routes are open. But in this patch, it is often impossible to move naval units from one side of your empire to the other in the late game, due to closed borders. The only existing solution is being Friends with many, which is usually impossible by that point.

These are the solutions I see:
  • restore the status quo: the easy way to replace something game-breaking with something imbalanced.
  • negotiable terms: free for friends, impossible after denouncement, somewhere appropriate for everyone else. (Sidebar: one way to cut out the past imbalance could be to only allow mutual OB’s.)
  • different rules for water: this is where the game-breaking problem lies, but adjustments like a surcharge may be impossible to code.
Europa Universalis gives different passage for naval and land units. Supply is also negotiated, so your boats can be repaired in their harbors. I don't think it should get so convoluted. Why don't we pass over sea closed borders the same we can move over ocean prior to Astronomy? So ships can move, but not end their turn in closed territory.
 
Europa Universalis gives different passage for naval and land units. Supply is also negotiated, so your boats can be repaired in their harbors. I don't think it should get so convoluted. Why don't we pass over sea closed borders the same we can move over ocean prior to Astronomy? So ships can move, but not end their turn in closed territory.

I think is a good enough solution and would like to try in next iteration.
 
This one is a little bit out there, but wouldn't it make more historical sense to have ALL borders be open until civil service, where you get access to 'closed borders'? (Which become the new default.)

I mean what's easier: Stopping people from walking over your poorly defined supposed 'owned land' or just not dealing with it?

The gameplay ramifications are a bit more debatable, but I feel like most of the strategies this prevents are exploitative anyways. And it's not like you can't just declare war on someone and murder their units if you don't want them to pass. In fact I'm pretty sure that's the only way it would work back then.
 
Historical reasons aside, completely reworking open borders mechanics would require a complete rework of the AI in that regard. So no, that's a bit too much at this point.

G
So we'll save it for once you announce the mod 'complete' and need to fill the bottomless void that if your desire for tweaking the AI and modding civ? :p
 
My biggest concern is that less open borders makes it harder to get the +20% Tourism buff for influence victory
 
My biggest concern is that less open borders makes it harder to get the +20% Tourism buff for influence victory
You get that bonus for the AI having access to your land. Sometimes they won't let me through their land, but will still happily pay me to buff my tourism
 
You get that bonus for the AI having access to your land. Sometimes they won't let me through their land, but will still happily pay me to buff my tourism

This has always concerned me, because the AI accepts it too readily when it really.serves as a punishment.
 
This needs to be documented or noted somehow. If CrazyG nor I knew it, it's insanely hidden.

It probably is noted, in their titles. Regardless I'm not surprised, as on most levels, the AI has an advantage in every function.

This isn't a handicap. It is a spy feature. Is mentioned in spy tool tips.

G
 
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