Open borders

[sourdiesel]

Do you guys sign open borders with everybody initially? Is there any advantage to not signing open borders since you can always just cancel it before DoW?

 

[peteraske]

There's a lot of reasons not to sign open borders, just 'course you can.

You can prevent a fast-expanding civ from settling on that open spot on the other side of your empire. If you are located on a peninsula, with one key city you can claim a lot of free land for yourself.

You can also prevent missionaries from spreading religions in your land..

You can interfere in a AI war, if they have to travel trough your land to reach eachother..

So there is reasons not to sign, but the +1 relations boost and the trade routes are often appeling enough to sign them

 

[f35acepilot]

Also, occasionally if you sign open borders with an AI's enemy, they will demand that you cancel your deals, resulting in a small diplo penalty with the demanding AI if you deny this, but a large diplo penalty with the other AI if you cancel the deals. So in some cases, you may only want to sign open borders with AI's that are friends.

 

[dirtyparrot]

There are reasons not to sign OB's, but initially I pretty much agree to OB with everyone unless they're someone else's worst enemy. It's an easy way to score a diplomatic bonus, plus it gives you a chance to scope out potential targets and where their strategic resources are located.

 

[r_rolo1]

There are reasons not to sign OB's, but initially I pretty much agree to OB with everyone unless they're someone else's worst enemy. It's an easy way to score a diplomatic bonus, plus it gives you a chance to scope out potential targets and where their strategic resources are located.

The bolded is probably the major reason to not OB ASAP, especially when you don't know everyone in the map.

There is another reason to don't give OB to a civ: trade routes. For a example, if a civ with astro comes from other continent and knocks on your door asking for a OB, if you don't have astro you'll probably be giving them some dozens of gold pieces from boosted trade routes without gaining anything substancial in return. That can serve your interests or not, but if the civ in question is already giving signs of wanting to run away in tech, doing a OB with them will probably hurt you a lot more than what you'll eventually win in diplo.

 

[aapo]

You can prevent a fast-expanding civ from settling on that open spot on the other side of your empire. If you are located on a peninsula, with one key city you can claim a lot of free land for yourself.

- I used to be afraid of this, but then I realized it's going to be really easy to flip their cities to your side, since those spots you'd want to protect are around your capital. Additionally AI is going to have serious maintenance problems if he settles.

You can also prevent missionaries from spreading religions in your land..

- I see no reason why you would want to prevent this! It's free culture, happiness and building options to raise that much-needed happiness cap. Also you'd at least have a way to get along with your neighbor if you have same state religion as he has.

You can interfere in a AI war, if they have to travel trough your land to reach eachother..

- I've had AI declare war on another AI while I was in between of their territories. Had there been closed borders, I'd wager I would've been much more likely target.

So there is reasons not to sign, but the +1 relations boost and the trade routes are often appeling enough to sign them

- Oh yeah there's actual bonuses too. Open borders all the way

 

[Windsor]

- I see no reason why you would want to prevent this! It's free culture, happiness and building options to raise that much-needed happiness cap. Also you'd at least have a way to get along with your neighbor if you have same state religion as he has.

The apostolic palace.

 

[r_rolo1]

- I used to be afraid of this, but then I realized it's going to be really easy to flip their cities to your side, since those spots you'd want to protect are around your capital. Additionally AI is going to have serious maintenance problems if he settles.

That is definitely not true in higher levels. I've seen Deity AI flipping human capitals by settling 2 or cities in top of the human and cranking culture up. Adding to that, the AI will never suffer as much of maintenance issues as the human in Noble and up

- I see no reason why you would want to prevent this! It's free culture, happiness and building options to raise that much-needed happiness cap. Also you'd at least have a way to get along with your neighbor if you have same state religion as he has.

As stated above Apostolic palace. It can also make their espionage missions cheaper in that city.

- I've had AI declare war on another AI while I was in between of their territories. Had there been closed borders, I'd wager I would've been much more likely target.

Wrong. The AI does not declare just because it can't pass

- Oh yeah there's actual bonuses too. Open borders all the way

Like i said above, that +1 may not pay up, even in the absence of a pretty messed up diplo net ( I've had game where I could only open borders with 1 or 2 civs, otherwise I would gain a "trade with worst enemy " diplo demerit )

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

You can prevent a fast-expanding civ from settling on that open spot on the other side of your empire. If you are located on a peninsula, with one key city you can claim a lot of free land for yourself.

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the AI won't send a settler through your territory even with Open borders for a very long time. So no need to close borders just to secure land. (I don't believe this has changed with 3.19 has it? I haven't been playing much since the latest patch came out.)

 

[dirtyparrot]

^ Not that I've seen.

 

[cabert]

Wrong. The AI does not declare just because it can't pass

already happened in a warlords game
genghis was mad at me for having captured a worker, but he had to pass through another AI's territory to reach me. Believe it or not, he declared on him just to send me his stack of pillagers.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Also, doesn't the enemy get a espionage discount just because you have open borders?

against humans, denying OB can be good to keep your map secret (until alphabet, since bts). Humans can do nasty things if they know your juicy/weak spots....

 

[dorkynorky]

A couple of things to consider which haven't been mentioned, in respect to denying AI civs extra space to settle. While, if you have created a cultural boundary on land the AI won't take a settler through and settle on the other side

1. If there are other landmasses that can be reached by galley on the other side of your culture boundary, the AI will happily sail through your OB territory and settle there. If you don't OB then they can't. This is particularly useful in arch. maps.

2. If barb cities form on the other side of your cultural boundaries, those AI that you have OB with will march their swords through and pick up those cities eventually. You can have OB with them but keep track of the number of swords/axes and chariots crossing over and close borders if appropriate to give yourself the chance to take and keep/raze the barb cities yourself

If you have blocked off a large chunk of land with a cultural boundary, you can OB with people as it makes diplomatic/economic sense, but its good to keep in mind that there are ways for AI's to end up with cities on territory that you could keep for your own.

 

[JBossch]

The main reason for not opening borders is what r_rolo mentioned: trade routes. The issue occurs long before astro. On higher difficulties the AI will have sailing very early, giving them access to your trade network if you have one coastal city. Until you have sailing yourself, don't open borders or the AI will just exploit you with one-way trade routes. One exception would be if you are prepared to scout their territory and deem it important.

 

[ppciv4]

if you block one AI in the corner(coast&in land), and do not open to him.
then no trade route for him.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The main reason for not opening borders is what r_rolo mentioned: trade routes. The issue occurs long before astro. On higher difficulties the AI will have sailing very early, giving them access to your trade network if you have one coastal city. Until you have sailing yourself, don't open borders or the AI will just exploit you with one-way trade routes. One exception would be if you are prepared to scout their territory and deem it important.

It can be OK to deliberately create trade imbalances too (OB and trade with one AI/bloc of AIs, isolate the other(s) from this exchange and them stomp on them even if your base tech rate is crappy because your effective rate from trades was greater).

 

[Soirana]

Like i said above, that +1 may not pay up, even in the absence of a pretty messed up diplo net ( I've had game where I could only open borders with 1 or 2 civs, otherwise I would gain a "trade with worst enemy " diplo demerit )

wait, i thought you do not get that penalty for open borders only?

 

[dirtyparrot]

wait, i thought you do not get that penalty for open borders only?

I don't think that you get demerit points for having OB with someone, but the other AI can certainly ask you to cancel it, which will result in demerit points one way or the other.

 

[CivMcNut]

I find that open borders often sets the table for how I play the diplomatic game throughout the rest of the game at large. If I have someone like Ghengis Khan, Monty, Alexander, or Shaka next to me I really hesitate before giving them Open Borders. Not opening borders is like a trade embargo. You keep these troublemaker Civs from flourishing in the early game, provided you have already established some trade routes with some other civs.

These same troublemaker civs are often the same ones that other AIs will come up to you and ask to cancel all deals with them.

 

[The Snug]

I don't think that you get demerit points for having OB with someone, but the other AI can certainly ask you to cancel it, which will result in demerit points one way or the other.

You can get a -4 diplo penalty for "you have traded with our worst enemy."