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Open Sid Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Spoonwood, May 5, 2017.

  1. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The following consists of an open succession game. The point of the game does not lie so much in winning, but rather for us to learn and do as much as we can before we win, or before we lose.

    In order to play some turns here, you only need to say "got it" before you start playing and agree to not reload on your turn set. Also, please don't use a utility program such as CrPViewer, or playing ahead, to preview where all of the strategic resources lie or previewing AI behavior.

    This will work roughly as follows:

    1. The previous save will get uploaded.

    2. Then someone, anyone except the person who just played, says "got it". Thus a player may play 10 turns, have someone else play 10 turns, and then play another 10 turns, supposing that perhaps the progress of the game seems slow otherwise.

    3. From that point in time, the person who says "got it" has a maximum of a week to play 10 turns. They may upload their 10 turn set in less than a week or their less than 10 turn set in less than a week if they want to, and hopefully most players won't take a full week. Hopefully, much faster. A week, again, just makes for the maximum amount of time.

    Exception: If no one uploads any new turns in a week after saying "Got It", then the player who played the previous turn(s) may say "got it" and play a second (or third or ...) consecutive turn set.

    Following any sort of team strategy is optional, though recommended.

    Posting any sort of turn-log is optional, though also recommended.

    Leaving plans for other players to follow after you play is optional, though also recommended.

    Leaving any sort of suggestions or strategy tips is optional, though also recommended.

    There are no disallowed exploits, except for reloading (preserve random seed is checked), previewing the positioning of strategic resources, and previewing AI beahvior. If you don't like an exploit or tactic of some sort, then don't do such on your turns. You may argue for why your tactic works out as best, but anyone else can use or ignore your advice (or make your tactic more difficult to execute) for any reason whatsoever.

    You don't have to agree to use a city naming convention either, though I will set one up in the first few turns, which I will strongly recommend to aid in playing the game. If you use the convention, perhaps after forest harvesting completes, the city naming convention might get abandoned.

    Settings: Sid, warm, wet, 5 billion, no barbarians, 60% pangea, playing as Rome (they're at the top of the list of all of the civs), with a pre-selected opponent list:

    upload_2017-5-5_23-23-22.png

    Here's the MapStat screenshot:

    upload_2017-5-5_23-22-40.png

    Participants so far:

    Spoonwood
    Ray2
    Blackhat

    And the initial save:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Got it.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    1 - 4000 BC Not entirely sure where to move the worker, because there could exist BGs to the south also, so I plant the city. I slightly mis-name the city A12346789qazcvbmlpuyt. It turns out that this makes for just enough characters! Move the worker to the 2 spot.

    Here's a picture for the city naming convention. Please ask any questions about unclear penmanship here:

    upload_2017-5-6_0-33-54.png

    The first letter, and only capital letter, of the city name serves as it's primary name for the time being. The first city has the name of "A". The second "B", and so on. This, I think, will put the cities in lexicographic order in the city advisor screen, so that our first built city appears first, the second second, and the nth city the nth. The lower case letters and numbers indicate the squares which have NOT gotten harvested via a forest chop. Thus, if you chop a square, I suggest that you re-name the city so that it does not have that number or lower case letter in the city name.

    Start min run on Writing, and a warrior. Spot an interesting spot in the south... though I don't know if anyone else would have any interest in doing that sort of idea.

    2 - 3950 BC Irrigate the 2 spot cow from the A city. Rename the city to A12346789qazcbmlpuyt, which fits the city naming scheme exactly. Note that I dropped the 'v' in the city name, since hills can never get harvested for a forest chop.

    6 - 3750 BC The worker roads and the warrior moves to the 8 spot.

    7 - 3700 BC Fiddle sliders, move warrior, and re-arrange tiles. Spot more coast.

    8 - 3650 BC move inward from coast even though that keeps the warrior south.

    9 - 3600 BC produce 2nd warrior and start on a settler (or is it a pre-build on a granary?). Move warriors first. Think about the worker move. I don't see too much gain from roading the southern BG, so I move the worker to the 3 spot cow.

    10 - 3550 BC Move the two warriors and spot a western coast:

    upload_2017-5-6_0-49-53.png

    Now, does the worker mine for earlier production and an eventual 4 turn warrior-settler factory?, road for earlier commerce?, or irrigate so that the cows can get shared between cities while running a settler factory?

    And I'll leave this to the next player, so I decline to finish movement of the worker and leave that to them.

    If we want The Great Library, then it might work out better to put out a settler first, even if we can trade Warrior Code for Pottery before the settler completes. Do we hold off on trading Alphabet until the last minute (you can check what they will give you for a tech... when you offer them a tech and what they can give you drops from "close" to "doubtful" or from "will accept" to "close", they've started to learn that tech, and then you probably want to trade it away and get as much as you can get)? Do we not trade it at all if we can manage to get Pottery via Warrior Code? Do we trade it away for Pottery before say a 2nd pre-built settler completes? Or do we hold off on trading Alphabet other than for Masonry/Pottery hopefully on the same turn and just hope to luck out on having horses/iron or not worry about those and hope to trade away for them?

    If we're going for The Great Library, where lies the best spot for the 2nd city? I mean, we can't tell this yet, I don't think. I suggest if we want The Great Library, as soon as the second city gets planted, it starts on say a settler as a pre-build, which may turn into a granary pre-build before a Palace pre-build. And then a Palace pre-build.

    Or do we try to go without The Great Library entirely?

    And the save:
     

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  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The southern grassland, jammed into the coast make for an interesting spot. There exists only one tile which can get roaded and lies directly adjacent to that spot. So, if we put a city there, and moved our capital there at some point either via an MGL, or via hand-building The Palace, we would then have a capital with only one possible adjacent roaded square. Thus, we could, conceivably get many techs, lump sums, gold, and have a fully roaded empire without all too many workers and pillagers if we don't have a harbor in the capital, and no airports either, and trade gpt for luxuries and other hard goods in "deals". Though, I am not saying that doing such poses any interest for anyone here, and maybe that gets better thought of as a backup, or last resort, sort of plan.
     
  5. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Hi Spoonwood.

    A Sid game is always tempting. Got it (if you don’t mind of course).


    The settings are good. No barbs, no scientific/Alphabet civs, will slow slightly the tech pace (it’s always pangaea Sid), and offer a better chance for the GL.

    I think trying to get the G.Library is the best choice (improving tiles + joining workers - size 12).

    If we get it, IMO, we should try to get as much gold as we can (markets/trade), 30-50 warriors + upgrade, for a first war with the closest civ and a Golden Age.

    If all agree with this plan, we should delay selling Alphabet (I would only sell it after a few contacts and wait until we get something really good in return), and maybe we can even be first to Writing. Pottery, Masonry, I. Working are the only techs we would need (I would take gold/workers over other techs). Mini run of Writing-Lit. should get us enough gold, but we should upgrade Warriors every few turns (otherwise gold will go to demands).

    All of this, assuming that we have iron of course…


    Very interesting as a ... backup plan :mischief:, but I would prefer if we didn't have to use it.
     
  6. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    I decide to build one more warrior, since the faster we meet the other civs the more options we will have.

    T1 (3500 BC): Change the Settler to a Warrior. Worker starts irrigating. As Spoonwood said, this gives the possibility to share the 2nd cow. Besides, the forests gives us the flexibility if we need more shields.

    T2 (3450 BC): Rome --> Settler.

    T3 (3400 BC): Warriors keep scouting.

    T4 (3350 BC): Worker starts roading the cow.

    T5 (3300 BC): Scouting.

    T6 (3250 BC): And more scouting.

    T7 (3200 BC): Worker finished roading the 2nd cow. Next turn we will have our settler - I stop here for discussion.

    We are on a small peninsula. Good thing is that I haven't seen any enemy borders yet :p. Also with so many hills we must have iron. On the negative side, no luxuries in sight, and our core will be quite small.



    If I was playing alone, I would build our 2nd (GL) city on the black dot, by the river, and follow possibly the rest of the black dots later. The alternative is to follow the red dots, building the 2nd city on the hill. However there is the 'risk' of having iron, and so it will make disconnecting it a bit problematic..

    I think the 2nd city should be our GL city, and Rome should build a 2nd settler immediately for a city on the pink dot. After that, I would build a few workers (and granary?) before going for Blue, Yellow, etc..

    What do you think Spoonwood?
     

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  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Go for it!

    That's interesting. There's an old article on warmongering that I read where someone comments about zones of control and barricades in that according to the poster, if you can manage to direct the AIs units towards a certain city by making it look weak, they will ignore strong defenders in barricades and thus you can use the barricade and it's zone of control to weaken incoming units. I haven't tried anything like that before, but it sounds like the legion having decent defense and decent offense early on makes for a good choice for that sort of thing.

    You never know with this sort of thing. I've sometimes gotten demands at this level and sometimes haven't. I believe I've also managed to refuse ONE demand and not get declared on... though I believe I've also refused and gotten declared (I didn't take notes and my memory might be faulty). The one setting I didn't mention is that the AIs are at "least aggressive".

    I would guess that you're probably right on both counts, but the AIs could lie far away, so things could turn out better here. We shall see.

    Well, the red dot on the hill has 5 bonus grasslands once other cities get founded. But, the black dot has 2 bonus grasslands immediately, while the red dot on the hill has just 1 bonus grassland immediately, and getting more cities up takes some time. Also, that hill might have iron, in which case for any sort of disconnect-reconnect and change to weaker units and then upgrade, we wouldn't the city founded on the hill. The black dot has a bit more corruption, but it's not too far gone by any means. Yea... I'll second the black dot city site. In my experience, 4 bonus grasslands has generally seemed like enough to manage The Great Library, with pre-building and joining of workers.

    The pink and purple dots I'm not so sure about, though they will take a bit. I mean, the purple dot looks good for production, but if we moved that site into the fog jammed into the coast, in the long run, such a city could have more commerce, because of more sea squares potentially used. Or we'd have more commerce potential for the empire. The pink dot, I think also works out better on the other forest (preferably only built AFTER we've cleared that forest), because it also has more commerce potential overall, and/or more commerce potential for the empire. Then again, maybe earlier/simpler production matters more for this sort of game, and the idea of maximizing of commerce requires some temples, and harbors (which fortunately we get cheaply), but I generally prefer to maximize sea squares for commerce in my core.

    Also, you have some turns left Ray2, so I would guess that you didn't stop so much to hand the save off, just to discuss and plan on finishing out 10 turns? Or do I guess incorrectly and you want to hand off the save? Thanks for playing either way.

    Additionally, it seems that we have a fish in the fog in the eastern sea. That sort of strange ocean tile spot might suggest that there exists some island nearby, or we have some sort of choke-point in the north. It seems kind of too early to tell.
     
  8. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Yes, fortified units in barricades often are treated like armies by the AI, which will avoid them. It's a bit dangerous on Sid though, since often the AI sends 'by mistake' 1-2 units on the wrong tiles. If that unit loses HPs it will get attacked and we may have an ugly surprise. Besides, I doubt we can waste any worker turns until much later in the game.

    There is a way though, so that we can avoid entirely getting attacked in our 1st war. Rome is one of the 3 civs that can have defence 3 units in the Ancient Ages. 1 fortified v. Legionnaire in our cheaply walled cities + an alliance (with a tech we will get from our GL), will make our 2 closest neighbours to fight each other, while we march in their cities, in succession :p



    Does the ''least aggressive'' setting improve the base attitude of the AI? If so then demands will be more rare, and of course civs will be less likely to declare.

    It is also a good idea to build embassies immediately after Writing and avoid trespassing if possible. Both will make the AI less likely to make demands (besides we will need the embassies in this game).



    I think you are right about the purple dot. One tile further to the NE will give more commerce tiles that will help later our crammed core.

    About the pink dot: I think it is important to build that city as soon as possible (maybe even before our GL city?) It seems that no other civ is too close, but on Sid I always find myself cancelling plans about granaries and workers and build settlers as fast as I can, before I run out of land to settle. And our capital and that city are the only ones that can grow fast.


    That's fine Spoonwood. I doubt anything dramatic will happen in the next 3 turns :p. You, or anyone else who wants to join, can continue from the save I posted.


    You know, I have noticed that fish only when I looked at the pic I had uploaded. Yep, or an island or a slightly weird pangaea shape. It would be a good idea to build a curragh first, in our 1st coastal city and send it that way. We need the contacts ASAP.
     
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Are you saying this, because we would have units defending our cities with a defense of 3 while they have spearmen with a defense of 2 defending their cities? If so, as I'm sure you know, that sounds like a small window until they have veteran pikeman in their border cities. But, that does sound advantageous, and I hadn't thought of that before! It sounds like a good idea.

    Yes, it does. At least in my experience, they start at "Polite" when you first meet them with the "least aggressive" setting which I don't recall seeing so much in XOTM games, which I believe get set to "average aggression" or whatever the middle one is.

    That's another interesting point. But, if you settle on one of those forests, do you try to chop the forest... and towards what? Barracks or hope for a quick contact and trade Alphabet or a settler (can city A get back to size 4 for a 2nd chopped settler before or at the same time as the settler completes... or can use both cows and have 6 fpt at size 3 so that when it drops to size 1 it still hits size 2 in 4 turns?)

    Also, the capital can become a 1 turn worker pump once we become a Republic (or does anyone really want a Monarchy?). Barracks wouldn't fit so well with such a worker pump.
     
  10. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    It is a small window indeed, but only if they have iron. Besides, even on Sid, several civs do not keep veteran units in walled cities (this is true especially for newly founded cities).


    I wouldn't chop any forests for now. After the 2nd settler I would build 2 more workers, let them complete 3 (?) mines near Rome and the 2nd city, and then I would send them roading towards the GL city, and towards the other city sites we want (so as to send our settlers fast).

    Re Alphabet trade: I would try to make a few contacts first. Then I think it is best to check every turn if the price of Alpha drops for any civ we know (this is tedious, but less so if you exit the trade screen using ESC - this will keep the items you were discussing to trade, so checking every turn will be faster). When we notice a price drop it would be safer to trade in the next 4 turns. Trade with the seemingly more isolated/backward civ first, for B.Working, Potery, Masonry + cash and then with all the others for what we can get.

    I wouldn't worry for any demands for the first 20 turns since we met a civ. Maybe even more, since this is the least aggressive setting?

    I know that in a normal game, we should trade for Pottery as soon as possible, but this is not a normal game :D


    Monarchy vs. Republic depends on what we want to do.

    For me the starting location, even if we don't have any close neighbours and we manage to build several cities, does not seem good enough for a peaceful game.

    If we decide for an early war, then I don't think it would be a brief one, and with Sid WW + no luxes, Republic does not seem a good idea.

    We can discuss more about this, after we know a few more things about our neighbours. :mischief:
     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Got it.
     
  12. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    This looks interesting. I won't have time to do more than follow along for ten days or so, though.

    I have used barricades to direct and damage enemy units, though not until later in the game. Fortresses also give zoc, right? I've also had defense-3 units out in the open be ignored by the AI when they had easier targets available (much to my frustration, as I wanted to start a golden age), so getting two AI to mostly attack each other sounds plausible to me.

    Black dot looks good for a GL city. On Sid pangaea I have no idea whether to build black dot or pink dot first.
     
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  13. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    We're not going to count any turns unfinished but left by the previous player. So, 3200 BC isn't my first turn.

    I strongly prefer a Republic even with war weariness. We can raise the luxury slider.

    0 - 3200 BC Move worker to BG.

    1 - 3150 BC The worker mines. Fiddle with the luxury slider. A starts on the 2nd settler. Move the first settler to the grassland spot without the BG. It doesn't need to get to size 7 for a while anyways. Spot fish as anticipated. Spot green borders in the south.

    2 - 3100 BC All of B's tiles overlap with A, so instead of labeling it with squares which can get chopped, I name it "B see A". Meet Japan:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-26-55.png

    Decline on purchasing the worker, since that would require gpt. Maybe purchasing it made for the better decision though.

    3 - 3050 BC The Japanese settler-warrior pair heads north instead of towards us.

    4 - 3000 BC Think about keeping A on 4 food per turn, but decide against it.

    5 - 2950 BC Japanese start Pyramids. Spot a coast and gems:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-36-19.png

    6 - 2900 BC More scouting and rearrangment of city tiles.

    7 - 2850 BC Warrior built in B. Start on worker. Maybe curragh after the worker... if it seems worth it? Japan has founded Kagoshima:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-42-0.png

    8 - 2800 BC A settler-settler as prebuild. If we can manage another contact or two here soon we might just use our lump sum to purchase Pottery. Spot Celtic borders:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-44-31.png

    Move settler towards GLib projected site. Spot another gems in the jungle. Realize I did sharing sub-optimally, but oh well.

    9 - 2750 BC Swap B to a curragh, for that earlier contact. Move the latest warrior back towards the capital, as I don't see a 4th warrior doing much in terms of contacts, especially with a curragh coming out soon. I had trained it thinking it would make a worker build faster.

    10 - 2710 BC Meet the Inca and we can almost purchase Pottery:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-53-49.png

    Both the Inca and Japan would do this deal at this point in time:



    The advisor also says "close" for both for this deal:

    upload_2017-5-7_20-55-58.png

    Move settler to the hill. The next player can decided whether to plant the settler there and start on a settler as a pre-build on the pre-build of a granary on the pre-build of The Palace for The Great Library or move it to the other spot.

    We can have contact with The Celts in 4 turns (check the D screen to initiate contact with them after having the curragh on their cultural borders). At that point ONLY should we purchase Pottery, and we can almost surely use our lump sum to do so. I would advise purchasing Pottery from The Celts, as they seem to lie on an island and thus won't have contact with anyone else to trade that lump sum around for techs. Once we have Pottery, then A can start on a granary. I would think another worker from B next would work out best.

    And the save:
     

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  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    General note on sharing... a city wants to have at least 3, if not 4 food on the turn that it grows. So, preferably city B would use one of the irrigated cows on the turn that it grows. This doesn't matter so much for city A, since it will always use one cow.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    According to the civilopedia and the poster I referenced before, indeed they do. I don't recall using them in this way before, but it's been a while since I've built them and used them in a war for anything else than having an infantry and artillery proper in a barricade (which the AIs do NOT attack before tanks... unless maybe they are The Ottomans).
     
  16. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    I can't have a look at the save (tomorrow probably), but based on Spoonwood's pics, it doesn't look good. Not only we do have a close neighbour, but he is also expanding in our direction. Also I notice way too much water for a 60% pangaea (is that a sea towards the middle of the map?), this makes things even worse (less land to settle).


    No, you did the right thing here (if we want to follow the W upgrade plan).


    Yes, buying pottery with cash is fine. But we shouldn't sell Alphabet yet.


    @CKS, or anyone interested, feel free to take a turn-set, or even participate in the discussion even if you can't play.
     
  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Over by the gold mountain, yes. But, I have seen landlocked sea before. There's no telling how far it runs. The domination limit seems middle of the road for a 60% pangea map. We might have sea in our part of the map and there exists a lot of land elsewhere.

    The map has a potential advantage in that we might (it's tricky to do this on a pangea map... much more easily accomplished on archipelago map) get the Celts to consistently dump their units right next to the capital later on, and then we could leader fish there.
     
  18. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Got it.
     
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  19. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    Pre-turn: Change A to a worker. Will get them to 3, so after they finish the mines, can road in 1 turn for faster settling (if Japan leaves us any land to settle of course)


    T1 (2670 BC): A: Worker - Settler (prebuild for granary)
    Warrior goes to B, lux at 10%.


    T2 (2630 BC): B: Curragh - Worker

    Meet the Celts:



    C 123479qcbmlpuytv :crazyeye:... founded.

    @Spoonwood: wouldn't it be more practical to add the respective number/letter to the city name, based on your naming convention pic, for each tile that had a forest chop? ;)
    (aka A becomes A 1 after forest chop in tile 1)

    Decide to delay buying Pottery until we get more contacts (and before A finishes the Settler).


    T3 (2590 BC): ...


    T4 (2550 BC): Decide to pull one Warrior back (he can scout Japanese land, avoiding trespassing). Our western warrior (going NW now) is enough for that area.


    T5 (2510 BC): B: Worker - Settler,


    T6 (2470 BC): Move Warrior from B to A, lux at 20%.


    T7 (2430 BC): Unfortunately no other contacts yet. I buy Pottery from Celts (115g.).


    T8 (2390 BC): I don't like trespassing, but I have to (I mean our Currach).

    Price drop for Alphabet for Japan.


    T9 (2350 BC): Meet the Americans:



    Celts are on an island (checked through Worker trade).


    T10 (2310 BC): We are still missing 3 contacts. Our Warrior that has just met the Americans could continue east? (there must be a civ there ?). I have not moved him yet.
    Our western warrior should make contacts with the 2(?) civs left in the north.

    @Spoonwood: Should we sell Alpha now? Next turn Japan will probably have it. But I am not sure if they will sell it around. I don't think they know the Americans, and for sure they don't know the Celts. Maybe we should wait a few more turns until we have 1-2 more contacts or sell it now?

    If we sell it around now, the probabilities that we won't be the first to writing increase. If we don't sell it around now we risk to lose a few trading opportunities, although only the Celts have cash, and we should get it anyway later.
     

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  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    This has traditionally been my foresting system (you can see it in many of my HoF game saves). Though, with a bit different system, which I won't go into, because I like the new combination of lettering and numbering. I'm not sure why I thought of having all of the not chopped tiles in the initial city name, but it has some advantages.

    1. From it you can estimate at a glance how many shields you can still get out of the forests for the city.

    2. I've often marked a chopped tile in one city, but not done so in other cities when the tile consisted of a shared tile. With having the unchopped squares marked, I think I'm more likely to change all of the city names, since I prefer not to have such long names.

    3. The unchopped squares also give you a ROUGH idea of which tiles to develop first. I mean, rarely do you want to develop hills, mountains, or deserts ASAP.

    4. You can easily tell which tiles can still get chopped. So, planning worker movement I think easier. I mean as an example, if we use the unchopped scheme have a city named:

    "A 127 tymla"

    I know that tiles '1', '2', '7', 't', 'y', 'm', 'l', and 'a' need chopped just from they city name.

    But, if we use the chopped scheme, then we have:

    "A 34689 qzcvbpu"

    so, I'll have to deduce that members of this set of tiles {1, 2, 7, t, y, m, l, a} can get chopped for shields. That requires a bit more difficult inference than the above.


    Yes, I think so. I doubt that we'd get to Writing first anyways. You might want to note this:

    upload_2017-5-10_18-10-5.png
    So, maybe we can use Mysticism with The Celts for techs. Though, maybe not.

    We really want Masonry.

    Ideally, we also also can pick up The Wheel, Iron Working, and more via Alphabet.

    Also, I have to wonder what the gains were from stacking workers on an unroaded tile. I don't generally do that.
     
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