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Opening build: Liberty NC Expand [G&K]

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Wargizmo, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I'm playing Songhai on immortal and I just built the Great Library. it was after turn 50. Washington, Japan, and Spain are on the map. They are not great thinkers.
     
  2. Grey_Warden

    Grey_Warden Chieftain

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    Sorry for the noobish question, but we are talking standard game pace and map size, right?
     
  3. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Sometimes you can get it that late. Sometimes you can it that late even on deity. Whether trying for it is worth it is another question.

    Yep.
     
  4. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    I haven't done it before, but do you have to actually have Libraries to get the free Wats from Legalism? I haven't actually tried that without the Libraries before so I don't know if they actually a requisite or not. If so that makes this an even stronger start for Siam. :)
     
  5. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Yes you do. Initially wats didn't require libraries but that was patched a long time ago.
     
  6. gberetfr

    gberetfr Rastaman

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    Waw another "impossible mission" for me ! Getting 200 gold at turn 15 is not so easy ! Appart from playing on pangea and meating a lot of civs giving you 25 for embassy, I don't see how it is done also.

    I tried again and got the GL at turn 40, but it requires a lot of "sacrifices". All the prerequisites for this build are not clearly listed imho, it cannot be done with the majority of starts (it seems that you need at least to settle on a hill, good and easily accessible ressources, forests,...)

    I'll stick with the standard version so !

    Thanks everybody !
     
  7. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Pretty much every 'fastest' path requires pangaea and good scouting. Yes to selling embassies to everyone, yes to meeting many CS and hitting cash ruins and probably the most helpful is settling on mining luxes and selling them asap. Yes, you do need a suitable start for pre-40 GL and yes, most of the starts aren't such.
    However, all of these applies to immortal level (deity is not even worth discussing). On emperor and below you usually can grab GL comfortably without perfect start. No need to stress yourself out to get it so early. Additional half dozens of turns won't make any difference. Actually, they will. You'll be in much better position if early on instead of wasting hammers on wonder you use them wisely on worker/shrine/granary etc. OP was pretty clear about that. He's not recommending GL hunt on immortal, unless you have a perfect start. I'd add that even then it's a questionable choice.
     
  8. marekb

    marekb Warlord

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    My own rule is if I see I cannot finish GL before t45 I don't even think to try, even playing on King or Prince. Even on Prince it happens AI finishes GL around t40.
     
  9. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    my rule on emperor continents (less AIs to trade/meet) is sub-40 for SURE and preferably sub 35 finish to even try for GL
     
  10. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    What's the rush?

    On lower levels delaying it is even advisable to get a more expensive tech. Philosophy is pretty cheap anyways, that's why it's not worth the money on higher difficulties. Too many sacrifices for too little revenue.
     
  11. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    And that is a great summary, my friend.
     
  12. marekb

    marekb Warlord

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    I don't agree. Of course, it is cheap if you look on :c5science: needed to research, but at that time your bpt is also very low. If you want to go directly Pottery -> Writing -> Calendar -> Philosophy to get NC as fast as possible, Philosophy would be one of the most expensive (in turns) tech to research in game. With GL you can get NC faster than without (+ additional techs researched in the meantime). However, I agree that on higher difficulties it is not worth of effort, but only because there is high probability that this effort will be fruitless.
     
  13. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Drama & Poetry is the prize for the GL. Free amphitheatre and an artist slot. But if I am babylon, I tech to D&P after the academy is in.
     
  14. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    GL obsession is never gonna fade. My enthusiasm, on the other hand, is. But from time to time I get inspired. :D

    Game progress isn't linear. The fact you research Philosophy, let's say, in 16 turns, doesn't mean you speed up your finish by 16 turns if you bulb it. It's not as much as what you get through GL, but more what you don't get by building it. You are likely to finish NC sooner with 2 Liberty cities but launch the spaceship sooner with 4 cities Tradition start. Early hammers are more important than early beakers. And while on lower difficulties you can afford spending them on something other than the most urgent things like workers, settlers, granaries and archers, on imm+ you just can't. AI starts with workers, settlers, extra military, scouts and huge bonuses. In order to catch up you need your infrastructure up and running asap. NC is very important, but delaying it for few and even dozen of turns is not critical if you're expanding. Delaying improving your land, settling additional cities, building granaries and defensive force is. Thus even if we take a hypothetical situation where we're guaranteed to get GL on these levels, I won't automatically go for it. Only if the start is suitable, because wasting lots of turns this early on wonder isn't worth it.

    Are you talking about CV or in general?
     
  15. Jelster

    Jelster Prince

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    So I tried this strategy this evening.

    Prince/Standard/Continents Plus/Normal Speed/Korea

    I went Prince because I wanted to try the Great Library method.

    I hit a tech ruins at T3 and got Pottery early, I had completed Writing & Mining at T23. GL came in at T37 and NC @ T52. I had 2 Settlers waiting, but had to get rid of a Barb camp which was in my way for the 4th City.

    I've just taken Washington on T83 and that was their only City - He kept trying to take Milan, which was on my border so I decided to get rid of him for good.

    Great write up and a great strategy - Best opening 100 turns I've ever played. I tend to lose focus, but with the build & research orders laid out it's help me keep on track.

    Thanks !
     
  16. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    The rush is simple: on emperor, the AI can and will, though not always, build the GL between turn 35-40. If you want it, every turn you wait to complete it after turn 35 is a turn that you risk losing it.

    Having said that, I have generally given up on building the GL because I don't think it puts me in as good a position as other openings that I prefer. But then, I am a huge warmongerer and generally don't go for peaceful science victories (though I will occasionally play for culture).
     
  17. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Turn 35-40 on average sounds too fast for Emperor. That's more of the Immortal range for AI GL.
     
  18. sufficiency

    sufficiency King

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    On Immortal GL is gone around turn 35-50, but most frequently around 40-45. Sometimes crazy people (usually Egypt or Siam) will build it super fast. Sometimes due to the lack of insanity it won't be taken until Turn 50+.
     
  19. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    Immortal I've seen range from 27 to 55. But on average, I'd say 35-40 is a pretty good estimate.
     
  20. sufficiency

    sufficiency King

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    But the GL also gives you 3 science, 1 culture, and a great scientist point.
     

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