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Opening build: Liberty NC Expand [G&K]

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Wargizmo, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. marekb

    marekb Warlord

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    I completely agree. You need to choose if you want to try to build GL or you prefer build archers/settlers/workers/other stuff instead.

    It is very probable, but depends on many other factors.

    I agree with that, but I wouldn't say wasting if you get GL ;)
     
  2. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Not saying it's the average, just that it *can* sometimes go then, meaning if you want to *guarantee* it, you have to build it at or before turn 35, which is why I usually don't even bother trying. Plus I agree there are other needs for your hammers then.
     
  3. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    It can't and it won't. GL is built around 50-60 on emperor and it's more often 60 than 50.

    Yup.

    And denies a settler, for example. I'll take additional early city that is actually capable of growing into megapolis than 1 GSP any day.

    The point is that getting NC as early as possible by itself is not what giving you the best head start.

    It's a matter of costs vs. benefits. Depends on what you have to sacrifice. If it takes you 30 turns to build GL while your don't expand, don't improve extra luxes, don't buy additional workers, army, shrines, CS allies etc it doesn't matter whether you get it or not. You're not doing yourself any favors either way. On emperor you can afford sacrificing more, because despite the fact AI stars with some bonuses, you negate them by simply smarter tech path and by medieval era you're far ahead with GL or without it. On immoral+ you start way behind (initial worker makes a huge difference, not to mention all the rest of the freebies) and you have to catch up, which takes time and effort.
    On immortal it's like: "I need this, this and this, so I carefully distribute a given limited amount of hammers between all my needs". While on emperor it's more like: "Hmmm... I have all these hammers... What do I want to do with them today?" :)
    On deity, btw, it's: "OMG! Where the f* I'm gonna get the hammers to everything I need from?!" :D

    Well, I'd estimate that chance by 0.1%, but, I guess, you're really a risk hater. :)
     
  4. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    I've played literally 100s of emperor starts (I prefer to start rather than finish games) and I can tell you definitively that the chance is higher than 0.1%

    Sometimes it does go as late as 60, but it tends to go, on average, around turn 50. The problem is, when you assume it will go around turn 50, so you target between 45-50 and it ends up going on turn 41 or turn 38, etc.

    The problem for me is that GL is nice, but you really have to be sure you want it because of what else you're giving up to build it. So, as a result, I want to make sure I get it.

    But, yes, I also tend to be fairly risk-averse and don't like missing wonders when I plan for them :lol:
     
  5. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    No. I like to do that just to finish Tradition faster in those cases where I open full tradition.

    Edit: I am teching to philo anyway while its built in case it fails. But, I can pretty much smell when it will work and on immortal that's about 20%.
     
  6. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    But this messes up the timing of Rationalism. :confused:
     
  7. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Oh man. I never get that to come out even.
     
  8. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Fail gold on emperor is not such a fail after the patch. :D Besides, if the wonder goes much earlier than usual (which is roughly your target), you barely invested anything and you lose nothing. But by any mean I'm not going to advocate chasing after GL. That's a good thing you're not obsessed with it. :lol: Too many people are.
     
  9. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Meaning? :confused:
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I mean I can never time it so that I have a policy pick come up the exact same turn that I enter renaissance so I can open 'the age of rationalism'.
     
  11. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    1 'spare' policy between Tradition finisher and Rationalism opener is pretty standard. Don't you get 2 of them this way?
     
  12. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Yeah, I plan on 7 or 8 policies before Renaissance and the option to open Rationalism.

    Edit: LOL see post 21.
     
  13. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    :lol: You bring your ideas to life much quicker than I do. I keep civ plans for months. :D
     
  14. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Lets think about Babylon or any civ in terms of 6+2 policies and then you open Renaissance. It doesn’t have to be a full tree.

    If I weave Tradition and Liberty, can I close Liberty at or near when I open Renaissance? What do I do with my free GP? Or do I take full Tradition plus 2 other picks(aesthetics)?
     
  15. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Although it's sure to be nerfed eventually, I've grown fond of Tradition (or Liberty) then Patronage + Aesthetics (+ Pledge) and then into Rationalism. In that approach, the more early culture the better. I'll even take a cultural pantheon to speed things along. Perhaps not the fastest path to a science victory, but a much more robust empire from the CS benefits (assured maritime food in my capital to work specialists that much earlier (and keep growing), extra happiness from mercantiles for more frequent GAs, and culture from cultural CS friendships to slam through Rationalism that much faster). Absolutely deadly as Siam.

    Be interesting to clock that approach versus the traditional "slow-walk culture until Renaissance and then boost the culture to motor through Rationalism" strategy, using the same civ on the same map.
     
  16. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Yep, except that I usually go for Scholasticism since I've been emphasizing a gold economy lately and getting a lot of city-states. Scholasticism offers a nice science boost.

    It's been so long since I've built GL but it gives a free tech, right? Since one would sacrifice everything plus 20-24 turns of production (best case) for something that you can accomplish in 8-10 turns? I understand about wanting to open a new policy branch as soon as possible but one is better off finishing Tradition first (which is why Oracle can be popular). The opening of Patronage or Rationalism doesn't give you that much of a boost to sacrifice growth, production and gold, I don't think.
     
  17. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Yeah, that's true :)

    TBH, If I'm going after wonders earlier, I've been more obsessed with ToA, SH, HG, Pyramids combo. ToA + SH + Pyramids all give GE pts and HG gives the free garden, so this spawns a GE pretty quickly, which can be used to rush another wonder that I would otherwise miss (e.g., Petra, Oracle, etc.). These wonders also give a nice combo of benefits:

    ToA: Growth + boost to overpowered ranged unit production
    SH: Religion (useful for civs who don't get any faith bonus), which can also be used to prioritize growth, via food and/or happiness
    HG: Growth + free garden
    Pyramids: 2 workers + faster improvements

    Pretty sweet when you can string these together. I find I can do it fairly consistently on emperor, especially with Ramesses, but I have to make sure that I am buying defensive units not settlers or else I have found myself invaded with large armies (Japan, Greece, Bablyon, etc.) that I can't stop.
     
  18. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Yeah, only times I build GL are (A) when playing Mayans, on Emperor and below (sometimes Immortal if the start is productive enough), to beeline for early (before turn 61) Theology and (B) on some lower level GOTMs.
     
  19. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    My main problem with Patronage - when I open it, I don't want to stop. I want at least 4 policies in. I manage to pull this off with OCC, but never with 4 or more cities.

    It's more about peaking bpt - wise as early as possible. For speedy finish you do have to fly through Rationalism and Patronage doesn't help with that matter. Although if you somehow find the culture to grab Scholasticism, it's definitely a nice booster.

    So you're obsessed with other wonders! :lol: Good one. On emperor with an average or better start usually you can build whatever you want. Occasionally you'll miss on wonder or two, but the vast majority will be yours. But again, the question is whether you need them or just want them.
     
  20. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    This is a very good starting strategy for rapid expansion to 4 cities without sacrificing early research. The only thing I would do different is build a Shrine early on to get the necessary :c5faith: to start a pantheon and eventually a religion. My ideal opening build path would be...

    Scout -> Monument -> Shrine -> Great Library -> National College -> Settler (for third city)

    If timed right, a free settler from Collective Rule will arrive to found the second city about the same time the NC finishes. Building the GL will allow you to research techs for early resources and building roads. You get one worker for free and then buy a 2nd to start developing your land. If you have good tiles near your city, you probably don't need to prioritize the Granary quite so early. I'd rather have my choice of religion than an early Granary.
     

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