Opening Honor in our Brave New World

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by GreenThings, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Birdism

    Birdism Chieftain

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    Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'd bump this one to talk about possible changes to the Honor social policy tree. Right now it simply cannot compete with Tradition or Liberty as a primary tree. There is a glaring lack of gold to support early military units, the bonus to constructing military buildings comes too late in the tree, not enough happiness to support conquered cities, the risk to get an unhappy empire early on and thus penalize your military's combat strength, and of course lack of population growth (falling behind in science).

    I also find awkward placing of the SPs to be un-synergetic. That being said, here is my suggestion for Honor; I split up the tree by military ability and infrastructure.


    Opener: Adopting Honor gives a +33% combat bonus VS Barbarians, and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Encampments spawn in revealed territory. Gain :c5culture: Culture for the empire from each barbarian killed. Unlocks building the Statue of Zeus.

    Left side: Military Ability​

    Policy 1: +20% :c5production: Production when training Melee and Siege units. Free maintenance for 4 units. No combat penalty when empire is :c5unhappy: Unhappy.​

    Policy 2: Military Units gain 50% more Experience from combat. A Great General appears outside the :c5capital: Capital and Great Generals are earned 50% faster.​

    Policy 3: :c5gold: Gold cost of upgrading Military Units reduced by 33% and :c5gold: is granted for each enemy unit killed. ​

    Right side: Military Infrastructure​

    Policy 1: Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies are constructed 50% faster and are maintenance free. ​

    Policy 2: +2 :c5culture: Culture and :c5science: Science from every Barracks, Armory, and Military Academy. + 4 :c5happy: Happiness from Heroic Epic. ​

    Finisher: +1 :c5citizen: Population and :c5happy: Happiness in your :c5capital: capital for every city annexed or puppeted. +2 :c5citizen: Population and :c5happy: Happiness in your capital for every city razed. Only applies once per city. May purchase Great Generals with :c5faith: Faith starting in the Industrial Era.


    This may not address the happiness issue entirely, but removing the combat penalty from unhappiness will allow you to press on with the attack. Plus, with the free maintenance to units and military buildings, and moving the current finisher to inside the tree, money will be much less of an issue. This will allow you to bribe mercantile city states, buy happiness buildings, or buy luxuries.

    Keeping in mind that military buildings won't be in puppeted cities, I think the culture and science bonus to them is helpful without being overpowered. And finally, the finisher provides growth and works like the Assyrian UA in that the bonus only works once per city. I think double population increase provides incentive to razing cities instead of just gobbling up every city in sight.

    Let me know what you think!
     
  2. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I'm not going to talk against a change in Honor, because I'm all for it, but I just want to say that maybe Honor is not intended as a competitor for Tradition or Liberty as opening tree? I don't necessarily agree with this myself, but it is a possibility.
     
  3. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    It depends.

    My first social policy = Tradition Opener.

    If I see tons of barbarians singing songs about impaling my heads on the top of their pikes headed for my way very early, I grab honor opener second.

    If not, I grab aristocracy then Honor Opener. There it is. That's my opening for like 99% of the games I played in civ 5.

    I only deviate from my normal processes in mid to late game.

    I see honor tree as supportive tree that works the best when sync'd with tradition or liberty or piety but not standalone.

    I remember when I tried to use it as standalone, it doesn't simply function that way.
     
  4. cajypart

    cajypart Chieftain

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    It's OP!
    Only change the opener: :c5culture: for each unit killed (not only barbs) and I go for full Honor.
     
  5. HiroProtagonist

    HiroProtagonist Chieftain

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    I also play a Tradition/Honor hybrid that eventually nets me the complete Tradition tree, the honor opener, and possibly the policy that grants a GG. That being said there's not a lot of motivation for completing the honor tree. In its current iteration it's not so much the Honor tree that's supportive, but a few policies in the Honor tree that are supportive

    The changes suggested by Birdism would make the entire tree more compelling
     
  6. Ninakoru

    Ninakoru A deity on Emperor

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    In my head there's some things I would change of your honor insight. The +2 sience +2 culture from military buildings is clearly OP.

    I think that all ancient policy branches should give some bonuses that are great at the beginning but lose power as you advance to the game, combined to permanent bonuses that scale or are equally great at later stages.

    On the other side, I don't feel appropiate to get growth and science bonuses at all. If you go the militar way you can't have the same kind of bonuses the two empire-building branches have, it doesn't make sense to me.

    The free units is the best proposal, removing the stupid garrison is also great, and the one-time happiness boost from HE. A production boost is NEEDED to somewhat counter all the free buildings from tradition, that provide a great early setup, but 20% permanent maybe is too much. I was thinking of 25% bonus on pre-renaissance units, even 30% to pre-medieval units.
     
  7. bcaiko

    bcaiko Emperor

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    Gold per kill is a very compelling reason to complete the tree if you're going Domination.

    In my current game, I got in a situation where I'm embargoed and so are city-states, and my economy is mostly fine because my units are being funded by the 50+ gold per industrial or post-industrial unit they kill.

    Completing Honor makes units more than pay for themselves in a war. Heck, it makes war profitable.
     
  8. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I think the big changes needed are
    1. cheap barracks need to be earlier in the tree (ie a first level policy)
    2. there should be some non-happiness bonus to exp buildings (possibly including Heroic Epic).. ie 1 or 2 culture, or 1 or 2 hammers from exp buildings... Happiness from Heroic Epic is also good
    3. Better early unit production booster.

    Happiness from garrisons should probably be kept.. possibly move it to professional army and make it 1 Happy per "non-recon" garrison+1 Happy if the unit is Not obsolete (matches well with the cheaper upgrade)

    so my order (sort of a minimum change)

    left side:
    Policy 1: 25% bonus to production of melee AND gunpowder units, (free General, faster generation of Generals..same)
    Policy 2: same (more combat experience)

    right side:
    Policy 1: +50% exp building production, (+15% combat for melee or gunpowder units adjacent to another military unit)
    Policy 2: +1 culture +1 gold for exp buildings, +4 :) Heroic epic
    Policy 3: -33% upgrade cost, +2 Local :) from garrisons AND Citadels
     
  9. georgie

    georgie Warlord

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    I think Birdism's suggestion is fairly OP right now. I would cut Policy 2 under Infrastructure to 1 culture and 1 science. Two science is just too much. You already get culture from barbarians, and I don't think you should get more culture than Liberty's opener for having a barracks.

    Then I would cut the finisher to +1 Happiness in annex per capital and +1 happiness and +1 population. If you went even on a mild conquering spree, you would have by far the largest city in the world with +2 pop on raze. +1 happiness and pop does reward razing cities which I think is a decent reward instead of always puppetting/annexxing. It makes sense to some extent: a militaristic society is happy when their armies are successful. Then, for razing, the population has to go somewhere. I don't think they all would die... Or it could somewhat reflect slavery which makes sense historically.

    Very good suggestions, overall though.
     
  10. HiroProtagonist

    HiroProtagonist Chieftain

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    I'll have to give it a try. I'm playing a late game domination and I'm far enough into honor that completing it is doable.
     
  11. Santa Maria

    Santa Maria Warlord

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    A agree with the Left side: Military Ability. The right side: the science bonus is nonsense, there should be no science bonus in Honor. I think to put the cheaper construction of the military buildings in the first policy is the right idea.

    Honor should help you in waging war and maintain that war. Which it currently doesn't. I agree all the policies in the tree are messed up. Change is needed.
     
  12. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I completely disagree. Many major scientific discoveries during history has been fueled by warfare and the need to improve weapons. A science bonus from military buildings fits perfectly in Honor imo., even if the suggested +2 bonus should probably go down to +1.
     
  13. sadv

    sadv Chieftain

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    I think the Honor opener should give you a free Warrior to lessen the opportunity cost of early barb hunting.
     
  14. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    That looks incredible, but that finisher... holy overpowered, Batman. The benefit to warmongering is that you become stronger by conquering the fertile lands of your enemies, and that's already good no matter who you are or what policies you take. 2 free pop from razing is insane. 1 from each conquered city I can understand, but even that is borderline overpowered, not to mention, India can abuse it, since they only get half a point of unhappiness per population. Somehow, I don't think a warmongering India is what the devs had in mind.

    Still, I like the idea of a bonus in your capital for each city conquered. Perhaps instead of population, you get the old culture bonus that Autocracy used to get in GNK.
     
  15. 0R4NG3

    0R4NG3 Prince

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    +1 would do it for me too.
     
  16. Birdism

    Birdism Chieftain

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    Thanks for the feedback. Some of the numbers were off, so I've made some adjustments and added some new ideas as well.

    Opener: Adopting Honor gives a +33% combat bonus VS Barbarians, and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Encampments spawn in revealed territory. Gain :c5culture: Culture for the empire from each barbarian killed and for pillaged tile improvements in enemy civilization territories. Unlocks building the Statue of Zeus.
    Spoiler :
    I think the addition of culture gained from pillaging makes for interesting gameplay. I like the idea of having short wars fought to bring riches to your empire (gold and culture) rather than only having long drawn out wars where the only goal is completely annihilating your opponent. Skirmishes away from cities is an aspect I find that is lacking from the game. This would also be an indirect buff to Denmark, which is needed. Also, the condition that the improvement is in an enemy civilization's territory prevents abuse from farming CS and building/pillaging roads in neutral territory.


    Left side: Military Ability

    Policy 1: +20% :c5production: Production when training Melee and Siege units. Free maintenance for 4 units. No combat penalty when empire is :c5unhappy: Unhappy or :c5angry: Angry.​
    Spoiler :
    A production boost to Siege units would be welcome, since they die easily to cities. Also, gold is a huge issue for warmongers early on, so free maintenance to some units is necessary. Also, because happiness is an issue for conquerors, the lack of a combat penalty would let their military continue to do their thing, and also allow them to squash the rebels popping everywhere.

    Policy 2: Military Units gain 50% more Experience from combat. A Great General appears outside the :c5capital: Capital and Great Generals are earned 50% faster.​
    Spoiler :
    The combination of these policies has good synergy, in my opinion. The more you fight, the quicker your units get promotions and the quicker you get Great Generals.

    Policy 3: :c5gold: Gold cost of upgrading Military Units reduced by 33% and Military Units can be upgraded outside of friendly territory.​
    Spoiler :
    This would help warmongers tremendously. I find I often delay my wars because I'd find myself with a few turns left to complete a military tech, and upgrading my units could give me a significant edge. So basically this would remove the idling of your troops for those turns, then the additional turn to upgrade, and the turns required to mobilize them closer to your enemy.

    Right side: Military Infrastructure

    Policy 1: Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies are constructed 50% faster and are maintenance free.​
    Spoiler :
    This policy needs to be available from the start for it to have any usefulness. The free maintenance also saves some much needed gold.

    Policy 2: +1 :c5science: Science from every Barracks, Armory, Military Academy, Stable and Forge. + 4 :c5happy: Happiness from Heroic Epic.​
    Spoiler :
    Honor needs a much needed source of science to keep up with Tradition and Liberty. The small happiness bonus is also useful for warmongers.

    Finisher: :c5gold: Gold is granted for for each enemy unit killed. +1 :c5citizen: Population and :c5happy: Happiness in your :c5capital: Capital for every city razed. Only applies once per city. May purchase Great Generals with :c5faith: Faith starting in the Industrial Era.
    Spoiler :
    The finisher gives a bonus for military ability (gold per kill) and infrastructure (population). I really would like to see a mechanic in the game that promotes razing cities, so that you don't just gobble up every city you see. I think this would make the player think harder on what choice to make, which invariably improves the game.
     
  17. Quineloe

    Quineloe Prince

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    The honor opening culture is not that much, as was repeatedly pointed out. The barracks tree upgrade for more culture and science would work, because unlike other buildings that get improved through policies to do something else as well, barracks buildings don't do anything unless you're building a unit in that city.

    Is honor intended to be an opener tree? I'd say so, given barbarian combat bonus and culture on kills is something that only matters in the first few turns. Just like those three culture from tradition are fairly irrelevant when you're sitting at +100 / turn.
     
  18. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    This looks very promising. But no Discipline (15% combat bonus when there is an adjacent friendly unit)? That SP should go somewhere, maybe policy 2. That is the main reason why I would get Honor, along with the experience buff, if I ever go as a warmonger civ.
     
  19. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    The bad thing about honor is that you can't keep up culture wise to finish it within a reasonable time frame (turn 90 or so). So, I definitely agree with anyone that said to get culture from every unit killed, not just barbarians. You could be getting half the amount of the unit's power as culture points, so Monty's UA stays powerful, or at least buff Monty's ability up, if you get full amount.

    Also, we all know that you can't take cities with melee units alone. Firaxis must understand that just giving you production bonuses for melee units is simply not enough, compared to the raw production bonuses you get from Liberty and the "indirect" production bonuses you get from having more citizens, from Tradition.

    Also, to anyone who says that Honor might not be intended as an opener Tree, why do they let you open it up in the Ancient Era and not in the Medieval Era, then?
     
  20. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I was one of those who voiced that thought. I don't know if I'm myself fully in support of it, but the point I wanted to make was that you can get fairly good results from taking perhaps 1-2 policies in Tradition/Liberty, then Honor opener (to get culture from Barbs), then back into Tradition/Liberty for a couple of more policies (possibly even finishing those trees, the actual number depending on circumstances), then back into Honor.

    My point is that if you want to go into Honor, you definitely want to open it very early in order to get the barb spawning notifications, the culture, etc. - just like you want to open Piety fast to get the production and faith bonus early if you intend to go down that path. This justifies opening them in Ancient era (remember how many people complained in G&K about Piety opening too late compared to when you actually needed the opener).

    However, neither Honor nor Piety seem optimal as a straight opener (as in picking your first 6 policies in these trees). I don't think that's necessarily a problem - in fact, one might argue that the fact that Tradition is so powerful as a straight opener is much more of a problem, because this narrows the strategic field of the game and makes other strategies almost by default suboptimal.

    This is not saying that I don't think Honor needs a boost - because I think it does, and a major one at that. Because I don't think Honor is particularly good at what it's intended to do - namely help you generate and support a large army fast. But since in most games you wont start a war on another civ until at earliest classical era (unless you are Huns and spawn a goodie-hut ram), it seems wrong to think all-Honor should work well as a starting strategy.
     

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