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Operation Market Garden?

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by Patine, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Say, @techumseh, may I trouble you for a quick favour? Looking through my list of ToT scenarios by people on the Scenario League and other sources (like the old Cradle of Civilization), I just happened to notice I didn't have a copy of your Operation Market Garden since a big computer crash several years ago. I went to the Scenario League website to download one, and it still links to your old website for the only download source - which shows a webhosting service offer to sell or lease that domain name or advertise on any of their sites rather than anything productive to me at that time. Would you perchance have a spare copy you could please upload for me?
     
  2. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    Check your PMs.
     
  3. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Thank-you greatly, Tech! Got it!
     
  4. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    I know this might be outside of the scope of scenario as designed but is there history altering outcome for succeeding in this version of market garden?

    Like you give FDR a lot more leverage at v Yalta or get the Germans to surrender in 1944 and save several million lives? Or is it just that Monty doesn't get as much as egg on his face?
     
  5. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    You're correct. This is outside the scope of the scenario.
     
  6. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    Sorry, I misunderstood your question. If the operation had succeeded historically, then the allies would have advanced to the Zuider Zee, cutting off all the German forces in western Holland, including those blocking the Scheldt estuary that prevented Allied use of the port of Antwerp.This would likely have shortened the war. Beyond that, it's hard to say what impact this would have had.
     
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  7. Kaiser0985

    Kaiser0985 Chieftain

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    Hi @techumseh could you please send me this scenario as well?

    Thank you a lot
     
  8. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    I'm just in the process of assembling all my scenarios to be available in one place. It should be in a few days. I'll post a link when it's ready. Thanks for asking.
     
  9. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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    Konig,

    The aim of OMG was to secure a crossing over the Rhine. After the fall of France, the German army was severely depleted & disorganized. The natural barriers of rivers, such as the Rhine, allowed the Germans to concentrate their resources. Had the Allies taken & held the bridge at Arnhem they could have pushed armoured forces into the excellent tank country of Northern Germany and the Wehrmacht could not have hoped to have contended with the sheer amount of Allied forces. It is likely that Nazi Germany would have collapsed in 1944. No Battle of the Bulge three months later. The Western Allies may well have been able to reach Berlin before the Soviets.

    The plan was a huge risk and conducted in somewhat of a cavalier manner. Personally, I think it was a risk worth taking, considering the perceived fragility of the German army at the time. As the rapid re-organisation that allowed them to launch 'Wacht am Rhein' so soon after the disaster in France showed, allowing the Germans time to re-organise was dangerous. The Allies suffered many casualties in the battles to break into Germany (Hurtgen Forest, Aachen, Reichwald etc...). Had OMG succeded then these slogging matches may well have been avoided. I'm sure many would disagree with me though.
     
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  10. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    Strategically I see the merit. It's just well, I personally ave an eye on the post-war and civilians. I know very well what the German people were about to go through on Hitler's orders and I tend to agree with my old high school History teacher that for all the unbelievable horrific things Hitlers did, the one that turns him into a complete monster is not surrendering after mid-1944, although I think certainly after the Battle of the Bugle failed, then it was truly monstrous. It's one thing to victimize people you consider your enemies, which is already an evil thing but betraying your own people?

    I just kinda shrug, not because the battle itself isn't worth fighting, but because I have such contempt for eh leadership of the Allies that I cannot imagine that FDR will do ANYTHING but commit the Western Betrayal as completely as he did OTL. FDR didn't cave because his hand was weak, he readily agreed to give Stalin everything because he thought appeasement is a good idea if I personally like the guy I'm giving these people over to.

    If I had any faith that Market Garden would save lives, stop the ethnic cleansing of Germans east of the Oder, push the Iron Curtain back, keep the Polish Home Army from disbanding, weaken Stalin's hand anywhere, then I'd do this with gusto. But I see the Allied leadership as callous and callow and all those deaths in Germany are going to happen, just sooner.
     
  11. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    These scenarios are not real. The better ones are designed to give you some possible military options to experiment with. That's all. They aren't intended to let you correct all the perceived moral failings of political leaders seventy years ago. You can't do that. It's too late. If you're so concerned with what you perceive as gross injustice in the world, then I suggest you focus on current events instead. And computer games have no impact whatsoever on either historical or modern reality. You need to get into the real world to have chance of any sort of impact.
     
  12. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    Reading Konig's posts reminds me of being an edgy 20-something war-history buff too. Don't worry, it's a phase we all grow out of.
     
  13. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    I should apologize. That comment was not a criticism of your scenario, which I have not played.

    The point is not just to remedy injustices that have already occurred. It is to think about the alternatives and possibilities, Yes, Yalta is a done deal, but what malfeasance, laziness, naivety or other factors led to the historical outcome, and how might changing this part of the story change or fail to change the outcome. And a total reversal is hardly necessary.

    It's the possibilities that excite me, and why I engage with games. The goal is not to win but to hone an ability for lateral thinking. This kind of the historical use of games like chess and Kriegspiel, Diplomacy and maybe even Stratego. Even Monopoly, when played as intended is supposed to be a teaching mechanism about how capitalization rewards winners to make them impossible to fail and punishes those with bad luck to ignominy no matter their skill. The game IS unfair, that is the point. I'm not simply interested in scenario design because I'm a player, but ever since I had a horrific run-in with tabletop roleplaying, I've been fascinated by the notion of game design and how it can be used to not only teach, but to get people interested looking things up, thinking about new possibilities.

    In the case of Market Garden, when I say, what does it matter? That's not a criticism of choosing this scenario to create. Rather, it's more philosophic. Germany is done for in late 1944, Hitler has decided on what he will do, the German Resistance is dead, there's no reason to think he will surrender even if the Allies get into the German plain in late 1944. If the Allies beat the Soviets to Berlin, what of it? Patton beat the Soviets to Prague and Allied command promptly handed back to Soviet administration.

    These are important questions, not in terms of answers, but in process, In foreign policy, broadly, Liberals fear creating a Treaty of Versailles, the conservatives for creating another Munich. But unless you really wrestle with the context of the era, you'll never understand the contexts of why both were inappropriate in their time. And thus you cannot truly learn from the past.

    And I ask in all good faith: why did you create this scenario? What I think it is you believe that these games are about (a private) glory, and I hold that these games are all about teaching that war is the continuation of politics by other means. Am I right in that?
     
  14. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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    From my point of view, the thing I take away most from playing well crafted historical scenarios, aside from the entertainment, is seeing the battles & campaigns from the perspective of the commanders & replicating the problems & dilemmas they faced. If I find that I can read a history of a campaign but it's not until I play a recreation of it myself that I really appreciate how important that one bridge, town, marsh or hill was to the success or failure of a battle. Of course, I can read & understand this but to actually experience it is another level of appreciation.

    OMG is a fantastic recreation of the unique conditions of this unique battle. The variables created by certain bridges being blown. The problems of moving your armoured forces up the 'Highway of Hell'. I've read Cornelius Ryan's 'A Bridge too far' and Antony Beevor's 'Arnhem' but it was playing Techumseh's OMG scenario that really made me 'get' the battle. Some learn by listening, others by doing. I'm definitely in the latter camp.
     
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  15. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    That's an amazing endorsement! I want to play this now.
    Can you give me your takeaway? Is it merely luck that prevented MG from working, or is there better prep, better deception, maybe even a heaping helping of silver or lead to get the British to succeed? I'm not asking you be right or that I accept your conclusions, only having read and played this out, what would YOU have done differently? Especially is you had any strategic level control?

    @techumseh
    Actually, I've been trying for months to get to your website but the links keep going to a place where websites are for sale. Is there a place where I can access those scenarios who's Scenario Lwiki link if our (former) web domain?
     
  16. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I can't speak for Tech but I create scenarios primarily because I want to play them. Unfortunately, it's kind of like cooking for yourself -- it never tastes as good as when someone else cooks for you -- so I also hope others will play them, and perhaps be inspired by them enough to build a scenario for me to play.

    All scenario designers have their own style, which is good because it means we have variety to choose from. One thing I appreciate about Techumseh's style is that he tends to invest a ton of time researching and recreating orders of battle so that the end result provides players with a close approximation (or as close as Civ2 is capable of, anyway) of what the real commanders had to deal with. He does this, but he doesn't script his scenarios in such a way that you "have" to put units in a precise order each turn to have any chance of winning - you have some flexibility with how you choose to go about things. So while I wouldn't say his scenarios (with Sea Lion being an obvious exception) offer wild "what ifs," they do allow you to experiment with different tactics and strategies overall, which enhances their replayability.
     
  17. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    I agree that it's more philosophical than military, but that's very much beside the point. You keep trying to impose parameters on these scenarios that they were never intended to explore. Market-Garden tries to put the player in the position of Montgomery and present him/her with the possibilities and limitations faced by that general in this particular battle. It has nothing to do with Roosevelt, Churchill or large scale strategic decisions either before or after the battle. If you don't enjoy operational strategy, then you should play something else. But please stop judging these scenarios by a set of standards that they were never intended to meet. To be very frank, it's irrelevant and kind of boring.
     
  18. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    To answer your question: why did I create this scenario? Because it was a controversial battle. Was it really "a bridge too far"? Or could better leadership implementing a bad plan have made a difference in achieving the plan's objectives? And that's all. You can debate whether or not it could have influenced the post-war situation all you want, but so what? That's not what I tried to simulate. To be frank (again), these sterile historical debates are not the reason why most of us are on this forum.
     
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  19. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    That's what the World History forum is for.
     
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  20. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    I would challenge Konig to make a scenario of his own, and allow us to see his geopolitical vision in full bloom.
     
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