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Opinions on the "AI"

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bdemz, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I agree with this, but I'm not sure it's 100% of the explanation.

    The missing part it doesn't fully explain is why the artwork is released without any identifiable errors, even at the small details that would not affect purchase decisions, while errors in the code go unaddressed even while the coding team is releasing patches to code in other areas that don't appear (from my perspective) to be buy / not buy decisions.

    The priorities and basic personalities of senior management still have an impact, even inside the broader framework of market pressure and return on investment decisions. Whether the development team spends it's time at this stage of the project adding "one more cool feature" or nerfing England or fixing items that aren't working as advertised, reflects primarily on the people in charge of the project and what they take pride in.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  2. Unconquered Sun

    Unconquered Sun Emperor

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    There's also the question of XCOM 1 and XCOM 2. Both of them were challenging on their highest settings, despite being made in the same studio and at the same time as Civ 6. They sold very well.

    Also, consider Civ 6's Deity has some never-seen-before bonuses. Three Settlers. Direct boost to unit stats, making their units different from the Player's. It still fails catastrophically, but the culprit seems to be the AI itself, not FXS overall policy on difficulty, or the bonuses.
     
  3. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    I play a lot and enjoy the challenge the AI gives me. I play on Emp and Deity.

    I would only play on Deity if it wasn't so annoying that AI spams the whole map with units. I am not sure if the AI get any smarter from Emp to Deity, but Deity is harder overall to win then Emp, so thats why I use it.

    I also use the mod "AI+". I highly recommend this mod for any civ player. It effects the AI in everything from troop movements, to their diplomacy, trading, building cities and protecting their settlers.

    Civ 6 still have problems with their AI, but they improve it with each update and shows in their dev videos that AI are constantly being worked on.
     
  4. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    ... or maybe Behavior Trees are a thing of the past? I just started a specific thread on that topic, because I did not want to contaminate this one and for the specific topic to get buried here... it may well be the explanation for the weakness of civ6's AI...
     
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  5. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    I'm not sure how you win a science victory at immortal in 1970 unless you're using a mod to increase tech/culture costs. In my most recent huge, immortal, epic speed game, I won a science victory around 1960, and that was with a mod that doubles both the cost of tech/culture.

    Anyway, on higher difficulties, there's a lot that can go wrong, of which you have no control over (I.e., getting sandwiched between a couple of warmongers while a peacenick gets a continent to his or herself, one AI popping every scientist which give boosts to their respective science building, one AI conquering a couple of its neighbors, etc.). Unless you're a nigh on genius, no one wins every game. As it is, I think the AI is fine. Sure, the AI can be "dumb", but if the AI played like a human, you'd never win at higher difficulties. Going off the above referenced game, just look at these screenshots. John Curtain was waaaaaaaay ahead of everyone, having almost triple the science of the next highest known AI and about five times as much science as I did.

    Spoiler :






    Any human player would leverage that into either a quick science victory, or a domination victory. If the AI were to do the same, the game would become more frustrating than fun.
     
  6. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    When the devs explained about the AI for civ 6 in their pod casts (you can find them on youtube) they talked about a new way for AI, that isnt only based in "If action X happens, do Y"., which is commonly refered to as Behavior tree. All AI systems have behavior trees, not only games ones. The AI could not do anything otherwise.
    The change isnt to remove any behavior tree, but to build a wider and deeper AI system, where it can "learn" and add behavior to itself depending on new experiences. How different civs acts different vs the player and other civs and changes their behavior towards unique civs, not just an overall change, is an example of this.

    There is just so much you can do with a set behavior tree, and even those system with a good AI, like Civ 5 had in the end, the AI was very predictable because when you did A, it did B. Civ 6 is trying to make AI much more diverse, unique per civ and create AI that doesnt do the exact same thing.
    AI for games like civ, are actually very advanced even if you compare to "real" AI, because of all the different areas the AI bases its function on.

    That being said, Civ 6 still got lots of work they need to do with their AI. And still pure bugs to fix, like a unit standing still and do not attack you, when it can and should.

    The mod "AI+" Adds tons of behavior to the behavior tree, which is why that mod works so damn well.

    But the weakness in the AI isn't "lack" of the behavior tree. The weakness is that they are making a far complexed system then only a behavior tree is, and that will take time to develop, patch and evolve. For example, to fix so the AI uses better judgement where they settle and build their cities, the "solution" will effect several different kinds of areas, then only "if spot X looks good, build there".

    The Behavior tree for AI in any game are "easy" to do. How good it is depends solely on how many behaviors you can code and what they are. Whenever the AI gets a question, where the tree lacks an answer, its stuck, or needs to use a default answer.

    The game industry and the high tech IT companies are evolving all kinds of AI systems to make them better then just an answering machine with preset answers. =)
     
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  7. Bizrock

    Bizrock Chieftain

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    What made me triggered is that a mod made by a simple man just for fun have more effect and is way better than the job made by a worker of Firaxis Games that must gain a ton of money doing ****.
     
  8. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    Yeah, the guy really made a fantastic mod. He actually quit civ for quite some time, but came back a few months ago, and updated the mod because of so many requests for him to do it. I agree 100% what you say man....the devs should take his mod, copy it, put it in the base game and send him money! =)
     
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  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    True, but the reason behind that is the ai gets so much bonuses because it is dumb. If the ai was more competent it wouldn't need that many bonuses.
     
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  10. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    It's like chess - in the 19th century it was common to plays odds games to even out skill differences: the stronger player would remove a piece at the start of the game. Pawn, knight or rook depending on the perceived skill difference. That seems to have fallen out of practice today. Personally, I find that handicapping the player by giving the opponents bonuses just goes against the grain. I would rather play a fair game even if it's not a great challenge to win.

    Incidentally, what is it about the word "deity" that it keeps getting misspelled? Are so many people on diets?
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    i before e except after 17,000 exceptions
     
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  12. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    I agree partly. Because FXS is also a company whose purpose is to create a product up to the standards without tricking the audiance and to create a valuable product to fulfil some people's needs while constantly setting higher standards and evolving, among others, to expand the business. Also, keeping the audience stafisfied should be their purpose.
     
  13. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  14. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    17012.65 actually... anyways, we are digressing... did you have a chance to read that Behavior Tree article in the other thread?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes, everyone from work was told a few months ago we have to start learning AI. I guess in the high end business world it’s using it differently. These are just rule engines and VI uses both as said. I do not have enough experience to make a fair comment in the area beyond the fact that we do not know enough and what we have is what we have. We can cry or we can try. I personally find crying a waste.

    It was a good article and helped clarify a couple of things, thank you.
     
  16. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Fully agree, complaints about AI is not limited to skilled players. Also the number of civ6 players was already lower than the number of civ5 players three weeks after R&F release.

    I don't understand why some people in this forum are still defending Firaxis and the poor state of AI more than 17 months after vanilla release.
     
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  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I am not sure anyone is defending them at all.
    From my perspective I am just saying any criticism of them should be more objective than stating they are rubbish. Life is a bit more complex than that. For a start its not a democracy in there and developers are not top of the heap. That Vox in in fact a clear example of how things are likely to continue.
     
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  18. FearSunn

    FearSunn Warlord

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    For me most amusing thing is how Firaxis react to all this AI issues. No reaction. The game is broken in its core but all they care about is additional content. This clearly demonstrates their attitude to the users. But most users probably do not deserve more...
     
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  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Primarily it is a business and it requires fanatics to take over once enough juice has been squeezed from the lemon.
     
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  20. FearSunn

    FearSunn Warlord

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    And for all supportive "mechanic" folks here I would ask: dont you see you are supplied with collection of cute toy soldiers, cows and tiny oranges which do not fit together. You could spend hours and hours analysing how this pretty things interact together, but this is naive and silly as there is no brain behind to put all this elements together into coherent game. You are deceived just dont realise this.
     
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