Optimal victory play vs Optimal game play

Yakk

Cheftan
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Mar 6, 2006
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So there is a difference between optimal play, with regards to a side's chance at winning the game, and optimal play for a game.

As an example, with regards to winning the game when perm. alliances exist, the optimal game-play is for the 1st place player to team up with the 2nd place player, and crush the rest of the world.

Similarly, if you are badly enough off, the optimal play for someone losing a war is to not capitulate -- only capitulate if you get enough resources that you stand a chance of breaking free later. (Unless you consider winning as a minor vassal of the game-winning empire to be better than being wiped out).

The 'roleplaying' components to the game are part of what makes the game better in the sense of better AI.

Along these lines, some thoughts...

Perm. Alliances should be used to make the mid/end game more interesting. The AI should prefer to form a perm. alliance between two parties that are relatively close, and they should seek to form a combined power/score/etc that is somewhat, but not overwealmingly, higher than the top player in the game.

The idea is to allow civilizations that have 'fallen behind' to once again become rivals for victory. At the same time, two civilizations that are 'top of the game' should resist combining -- the resulting game isn't as interesting, as all it did was entrench dominance.

I've already put forward a similar though -- the AI should prefer more recent religions, all things being equal, to older religions. As it stands, founding Islam or Christianity and changing to those religions is almost always a diplomatic disaster: the 'old' religions have had too much time to become entrenched by this point.

However, if the AI prefers to switch to new religions, then staying in the old religions becomes a diplomatic disaster as more and more civilizations start disliking you. This means that starting with and spreading the newer religions is rewarded more.

A state with a shrine to an older religion should still be somewhat stubborn about switching gods, and you should have a reluctance to switch gods to the same as civilizations you dislike, and a tendency to switch gods to religions of civilizations you like...

Another vassalization thought -- should civilizations be more open to becoming a vassal? If you are above 50% of the land area of your master civilization, the arrangement is completely voluntary on your part. You can quit whenever you want.
 
No, no and no. Sorry. I just can't agree, this only makes the AI more "handicapped". And also, if the AI is weak somebody should wipe it out. Natural order of things. What you propose would just not be fun also, as it would make for less AI-AI wars.
 
So should we hard code in "the top 2 players in the score graph always form a Perm. Alliance"?

Because that is almost always the best way to win the game for the top two players. :)
 
The problem with perm alliance is that in reality you only get 1/2 a win.

Most people complain about the vassalage feature but I would say the perm. alliance feature is much less balanced.

Personally I wont have them on and then Better AI doesnt need to consider them.

The other thing is you could literally rate a perm. alliance win as 1/2 a win.
 
The other thing is you could literally rate a perm. alliance win as 1/2 a win.

I've lost quite a few games because of my allies.
 
The problem with perm alliance is that in reality you only get 1/2 a win.

Most people complain about the vassalage feature but I would say the perm. alliance feature is much less balanced.

Personally I wont have them on and then Better AI doesnt need to consider them.

The other thing is you could literally rate a perm. alliance win as 1/2 a win.

Which, as an aside, means that one should only form a perm. alliance if it at least doubles your chance of winning.

It still means that #2 and #3 should gang up on #1 if there is any kind of gap. And then we end up with #1 poaching #2 or #3 in order to prevent a #2/#3 gang up after #1 starts to open a gap...

I'm trying to say that the roleplaying and game parts of Civ should be considered.

If perm. alliances end up 'seeking a more competative game' in the modern era, we get a wonderful result -- the game is 'refreshed' and widened in the modern era with new competitors, instead of 'narrowed' as the largest empires that are in the game merge.

If you want a point-based system, a perm. alliance as 0.1 of a win, and being the vassal of the winner as 0.01 of a win (ie, not really a win, you merged and are no longer sovereign), you could get that behaviour. But the goal would be the behaviour, not the 'win points' (which the AI doesn't use in any case).

That would mean that civilisations would only merge if they seriously think they stand little chance at winning, but after the merge they have a decent chance.
 
If perm. alliances end up 'seeking a more competative game' in the modern era, we get a wonderful result -- the game is 'refreshed' and widened in the modern era with new competitors, instead of 'narrowed' as the largest empires that are in the game merge.

It is not a good game when you see the same AI's disliking each other for the same basic reasons throughout the entire game from medieval to post modern. Refreshing through alliances, pacts and vassaling is a great way to go.

One question is, let's say we could get AI's to intelligently form alliances, pacts etc. Would the end result be world war every game, or would there be the same standoff's that emerge between individual civs? In other words, could two alliance competitors resolve down in behaviour, to be very similar to two large single civs?

Cheers.
 
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