Optimizing for Diplomatic Victory?

[amphreded]

Hi guys, I have been trying to improve my time for diplo victory but have a few obstacles I could use some help with:

1) Once you reach the information era, World Leader session becomes available. However, sometimes it takes more than 20 turns, sometimes a lot less until the World Leader congress is held. How do you predetermine the turn?

2) What's the optimized use for World Congress? I usually proposed either World Religion and World Fair first (the former to get +2 delegates), then World Ideology for the second congress. However, sometimes I would not reach Radio by the second congress, and by third congress, Diplomatic Victory is usually within reach, thus proposing World Ideology at this point doesn't do much difference.

3) Should you try to find all civs and research printing press as fast as possible so the world congress starts early? Or should you delay a little so you would get enough science to reach Radio for the second congress?

4) What's the Social Policy and Wonders to grab? I usually do Tradition, then Oracle to for the last policy on Tradition, then 2-3 points into Patronage (more influence with gold and science from CS), then as I discover Printing Press, grab Rationalism soon after. Build Pisa, get GE to rush Forbidden Palace. If I'm behind in science, I'd abandon Pisa and go for Forbidden Palace only. After Printing Press, beeline Scientific Theory, then straight to Radio, using Oxford get it. Ideology, I've tried both Order and Freedom, doesn't make much difference to me - which one would you recommend? After that, beeline Plastics then bulb accordingly. However, it seems that I could bulb my GSs much before Plastics to reach Information Era. However, sometimes I don't have enough culture to finish Rationalism, thus I can't buy GSs with my 2500+ faith. If I have won the World Fair, I could use my saved up GWs to finish Rationalism. However, since sometimes I would do World Religion and World Ideology and skip World Fair, I wouldn't have enough culture to finish Rationalism then. If I proposed World Fair, most likely I will miss out on an opportunity to propose for either W. Religion or W.Ideology, which reduces my delegates by 2. I can reach Info Era much faster with World Fair, however, sometimes that 2 delegates will be crucial and I don't have enough money to buy all CSs. Globalization helps of course, but if reach Info Era fast, I'm still likely haven't bought all of CSs and I will need some of my spies to go for coup. Worse, sometimes you won't have enough GS to bulb Globalization in time for the World Leader Proposal.

5) Faith-wise, I can get 2-3 GSs easily on decent-good start. However, since with Diplo Victory, sometimes you don't need that much GS. Would you ignore faith altogether, since usually GSs spawned from cities are quite enough, or would you concentrate on faith and switch out GS in cities to GM to generate more gold for buying CSs?

Currently my best time for DV is turn 230 on Immortal (quite lucky on my part, as I easily brought a neighboring civ back to life to get their vote), my average is around turn 245. Most of the time, I would have enough delegates by turn 220, but once I've reached in Information Era, the World Leader proposal is usually around 20 turns away. If I rush to Info Era without having enough money or resources to buy out all CSs, when the World Leader proposal happens, I don't have enough delegates.

Appreciate any feedback!

 

[Rooftrellen]

1) The current session, with it's proposals will be run, then you go to the world leader vote in the standard number of turns (is it 20 on normal speed?), just as if the world advances an era right after the last session ended, and the number of turns to vote does not change. However, after the world enters the atomic era, the next vote (after the current proposals are voted on) will ALWAYS be the world leader vote.

2. Sounds about right, anything to get more delegates. If you can't get Radio in time for the second congress, and you're considering what to propose for the 3rd, ask yourself if anything else would make a larger difference? A friendly AI does sell world leader votes without too much fuss, so it could be better to make everyone else happy, but it's situational.

3. Founding the world congress doesn't matter too much. The Ren era meetings are too far apart to matter. If it's founded too soon, the world may not be in the Industrial era by the second vote though, which could be a pain, but I have found that to be rare, though on lower difficulties it could be a threat. For a diplo victory, though, a later world congress can be better, and there's no reason to rush to try to found it. Other things (Forbidden Palace) are more important.

4. I'd say Forbidden Palace is the only major wonder. Anything to speed along science (you want Info era fast) or culture (tier 3 tenants are great, and being able to finish Patronage is at least nice) is a bonus. Thus, Oracle is a nice grab, since the AI doesn't highly value it, Leaning Tower gives a good boost via more great scientists, Porcelain Tower is also great for the extra scientist. Cristo Redentor isn't a huge deal to get, but it's pretty much on the way anyway, and can net an extra SP before the game ends in most cases. If they are available, Petra and the Colossus can be nice with Freedom (or just for extra gold to help buy CS's) as well, but the AI seems to love both of them. Of course, you take what you can get, outside of the Forbidden Palace, it's all gravy.

Order isn't so great for a diplo victory. Freedom is definitely better, and the trade route influence on CS's is huge. Autocracy is actually sneaky good as well. It doesn't take many units to use Gunboat Diplomacy, and, if you managed to manipulate some wars, there are likely some civs and CS's that are just waiting to be liberated on the fringes of a runaway's land, which could be used for guaranteed votes, but it depends on the map, your civ, and how the game has gone to that point.

5. I never felt like I was just sitting on a GS in a diplo game, and most of the time I like to spread my religion far and wide to make it easier to pass it as the world religion, so in diplo games, faith tends to be a point of emphasis for me. Another advantage to being able to faith buy GS's is that you can rush into the Info age if needed (and if not needed, may be the difference between diplomats giving extra votes or not). Faith buildings aren't too expensive later, compared to what they can give you in great people, anyway, so even if you ignore it early, in most of my diplo games, I have little to do in cities at certain points, and throwing up a shrine and temple is a small investment.

 

[joncnunn]

Hi guys, I have been trying to improve my time for diplo victory but have a few obstacles I could use some help with:

1) Once you reach the information era, World Leader session becomes available. However, sometimes it takes more than 20 turns, sometimes a lot less until the World Leader congress is held. How do you predetermine the turn?

World Leader vote will take place 10 turns after the next regularly scheduled vote following the World Council becoming the UN (not counting the vote for leader)

2) What's the optimized use for World Congress? I usually proposed either World Religion and World Fair first (the former to get +2 delegates), then World Ideology for the second congress. However, sometimes I would not reach Radio by the second congress, and by third congress, Diplomatic Victory is usually within reach, thus proposing World Ideology at this point doesn't do much difference.

You would need to build Forbidden Palace and also be the initial host to have any sort of shot of winning a World Religion vote (barring something weird like AI proposing to embargo someone a lot of AIs are trading with / a luxury a lot of AIs are getting). All AIs that found a religion before the vote will vote against this proposal. Those who didn't, including those following yours are likely to abstain on this vote in order to vote on the other proposal.
Keep in mind this will make all the AIs that did found a religion before the vote mad at you even if it goes down, so have a strong military.

Yes, World Ideology is the most effective proposal for Diplomatic Victory. And of course you want to win the vote to become the host of the UN.

3) Should you try to find all civs and research printing press as fast as possible so the world congress starts early? Or should you delay a little so you would get enough science to reach Radio for the second congress?

Neither, you should enter the era via Banking to maximize your chance of building the Forbidden Palace for its 2 permanent votes on Immortal+. You can take control of the council later. On Emperor and below it doesn't matter as much.

4) What's the Social Policy and Wonders to grab? I usually do Tradition, then Oracle to for the last policy on Tradition, then 2-3 points into Patronage (more influence with gold and science from CS), then as I discover Printing Press, grab Rationalism soon after. Build Pisa, get GE to rush Forbidden Palace. If I'm behind in science, I'd abandon Pisa and go for Forbidden Palace only. After Printing Press, beeline Scientific Theory, then straight to Radio, using Oxford get it. Ideology, I've tried both Order and Freedom, doesn't make much difference to me - which one would you recommend? After that, beeline Plastics then bulb accordingly. However, it seems that I could bulb my GSs much before Plastics to reach Information Era. However, sometimes I don't have enough culture to finish Rationalism, thus I can't buy GSs with my 2500+ faith. If I have won the World Fair, I could use my saved up GWs to finish Rationalism. However, since sometimes I would do World Religion and World Ideology and skip World Fair, I wouldn't have enough culture to finish Rationalism then. If I proposed World Fair, most likely I will miss out on an opportunity to propose for either W. Religion or W.Ideology, which reduces my delegates by 2. I can reach Info Era much faster with World Fair, however, sometimes that 2 delegates will be crucial and I don't have enough money to buy all CSs. Globalization helps of course, but if reach Info Era fast, I'm still likely haven't bought all of CSs and I will need some of my spies to go for coup. Worse, sometimes you won't have enough GS to bulb Globalization in time for the World Leader Proposal.

The Leaning Tower for GE for FP doesn't work well on Immortal+. The AIs will reach Banking before you reach Printing Press and 1 of them will complete FP before you complete Leaning Tower.
Yes, Patronage are really only filler polices even going for Diplomatic while awaiting to be allowed into Rationalism.

Order has zero bonuses towards Diplomatic victory, going this way finishing Rationalism ASAP is likely to give the best result.

To use Freedom's bonuses towards Diplomatic victory, then after you open Freedom, start rerouting all external trade connections to city states. (In addition even if your not finished with Rationalism, interupt that to get a level 3 Freedom ASAP)
Following getting that level 3 tenet, go back and finish Rationalism ASAP and then dump any excess polices into completing Patronage.
Also be sure to have the votes to defeat any embargo city state proposal.

About 6 turns or so before reaching Globalism, turn all spies into diplomats. Also be sure to complete NIA at some point just for the extra spy to turn into a diplomat.

5) Faith-wise, I can get 2-3 GSs easily on decent-good start. However, since with Diplo Victory, sometimes you don't need that much GS. Would you ignore faith altogether, since usually GSs spawned from cities are quite enough, or would you concentrate on faith and switch out GS in cities to GM to generate more gold for buying CSs?

You'll get better results with GS to get to Globalism faster. Gold isn't the bottleneck, Science is.

Currently my best time for DV is turn 230 on Immortal (quite lucky on my part, as I easily brought a neighboring civ back to life to get their vote), my average is around turn 245. Most of the time, I would have enough delegates by turn 220, but once I've reached in Information Era, the World Leader proposal is usually around 20 turns away. If I rush to Info Era without having enough money or resources to buy out all CSs, when the World Leader proposal happens, I don't have enough delegates.

Which is fine, if you don't get it the first time, you get 2 more free delegates to use for next time in 20 turns.
You're actually already near the best possible results ever since the fall patch increased the vote count needed. In fact it's a good thing that it's been this long, if they had seen a similar time when the fall patch first came out they'd have increased the vote count needed to win even more.

 

[Sessy]

didn't really push for this VC when I play, but I think generally it has a lot to do with when you time entering info era so it's close to the congress vote and you get your next vote sooner. Pumping a lot of RAs would help, so I'd also suggest PT along with forbidden palace.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think diplo victory needs a LOT of gold, and going commerce for powered merchants would help a lot, it's basically grabbing a CS and letting you buy another one.

 

[joncnunn]

didn't really push for this VC when I play, but I think generally it has a lot to do with when you time entering info era so it's close to the congress vote and you get your next vote sooner. Pumping a lot of RAs would help, so I'd also suggest PT along with forbidden palace.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think diplo victory needs a LOT of gold, and going commerce for powered merchants would help a lot, it's basically grabbing a CS and letting you buy another one.

Some gold, but the primary way of getting the allies in base game is just doing the quests. Some will even chain. (City state A has a request that you get a resource that City B has so when you fufill a quest to become allies with B you also become allies with A)
And the other way is spies. A spy promoted to secret agent has can get 85% odds of success even with a 60 point spread.
In addition, if you go Freedom, you'll get influence from the level 3 tenet from trade routes to city states for a few more.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think diplo victory needs a LOT of gold, and going commerce for powered merchants would help a lot, it's basically grabbing a CS and letting you buy another one.

You can't fill out everything. Patronage is probably generally stronger than Commerce as a second SP tree (there may be exceptions, looking at you, Venice), and that goes double for going diplo Freedom, since you can make those trade routes with CS's really great.

Besides Venice, I might consider doing Commerce with Germany or the Ottomans, maybe. They both have a UA that could be useful for leveraging Gunboat Diplomacy, which is nice for keeping everyone else off your back as well, since you have a nice army, but even if I were planning on Autocracy diplo, I'm not sure it would be worth it for anyone else. In my limited experience with it, you only need 2-3 modern units near a CS to get them scared enough to gain influence, which is hardly demanding enough on the gold reserves to demand the extra cash from Commerce (and it's harder to tech with Autocracy, meaning if going that route, the extra science from CS allies is slightly more valuable).

 

[amphreded]

Hey guys thanks for the reply. Some comments:

6) How are you guys getting enough culture to finish both Rationalism and get tier 3 for Freedom? When I aim to reach DV by turn 240, I barely have enough culture to finish Rationalism let alone getting 3 extra policies for ideology. Usually I take either Freedom or Order, and only dip 2 free points into them (Freedom for less food consumed by specialists, and extra GP generation; Order for gold purchase discount in cities, and extra GP generation) - that's why I didn't think Freedom or Order matter much since the crucial thing is getting 25% bonus to GP generation. Even with World Fair + GW bulbing, 3 extra policies for tier 3 Freedom seems out of hand.

7) I usually try my best to time Renaissance era so I spend no more than 2 points in Patronage, and can start Rationalism as fast as possible. Usually with Oracle, I can get full Tradition and dips 2 points into Patronage. If I'm late into Renaissance, then extra point into Patronage (science boost from CS), but I really prefer spending the culture for Rationalism, since it will be much easier for me to finish Rationalism later in order to start pump out GS with faith. Not sure this is optimal or not, but that's what I do.

8) I've tried Patronage-Commerce hybrid before, which sometimes works well. But like I've written above, I prefer to get Rationalism early. The only time I go for Patronage-Commerce hybrid is when I don't reach Renaissance fast enough, so I dip a point into Commerce instead of Patronage's 3rd point (extra science from CS). Only used this in conjuncture with good gold start - mine luxs, sea luxs, or if I play good money civ like Morocco or Arabia, sometimes with Petra. For games without good money generation, I think extra science from CS is better than gold boost in the capital. Ideal is to get full tradition with Oracle, then 2 points into Patronage, then enter Renaissance and start on Rationalism right away. If doesn't enter Renaissance fast enough, then extra policy can go either to Patronage or Commerce, depending on meta game.

9) Yes sorry I forgot to mention I do get Porcelain Tower for the extra GS. I rarely make RAs, but whenever I make RAs it's usually pre-Renaissance anyway, so Porcelain Tower is really for the extra GS, not for RA boost. This is of course, only Immortal difficulty though. I imagine Deity RAs might be more relevant. In Immortal, unless something goes really wrong, I should be above average in science, if not top 2 civs with highest science. Money to be spend on RAs at that point doesn't seem worth it to me. The only Wonders I usually get is Oracle, Porcelain Tower, and Forbidden Palace. Pisa is high priority, but not a must. Other Wonders to grab are Petra (depending on start), and on games where I have superb start, I usually grab Sistine Chapel too. In games which I build Sistine Chapel, I would have a least two cities with high production. One of the cities would be building Forbidden Palace (usually the capital), and another would work on Pisa, then Pisa to rush Sistine out. I'm not sure when I actually should get GS with Pisa instead of GE to rush Sistine or not though. But in most cases, Sistine Chapel with World Fair really helps with culture, and I can finish Rationalism easily 8 turns after I've won the World Fair through GW bulbing.

10) One consideration I have had in the past is to fund a civ to completely wipe out a small civ, so I can revive them to get extra delegates. However, this tends to be highly inconsistent, since usually civs can settle for peace before one is completely crushed; also, the small civ could also go settle on a remote place where non other civs will successfully wipe them out.

11) Another question: do you dip into Humanism (+25% GS generation) or Secularism (extra science from specialists) first ? I have always first pick Secularism, but it seems like this should be the way other around, to maximize the number of GS ready to bulb into Info Era?

By the way, I normally play on Continent. Getting a good coastal city for high gold sea trade routes is quite crucial.

 

[joncnunn]

Hey guys thanks for the reply. Some comments:

6) How are you guys getting enough culture to finish both Rationalism and get tier 3 for Freedom? When I aim to reach DV by turn 240, I barely have enough culture to finish Rationalism let alone getting 3 extra policies for ideology. Usually I take either Freedom or Order, and only dip 2 free points into them (Freedom for less food consumed by specialists, and extra GP generation; Order for gold purchase discount in cities, and extra GP generation) - that's why I didn't think Freedom or Order matter much since the crucial thing is getting 25% bonus to GP generation. Even with World Fair + GW bulbing, 3 extra policies for tier 3 Freedom seems out of hand.

Yes, World Fair as the first vote. GW bulbing 8 turns after the World Fair started, hopefully a GA started on or before then.
Ally with cultural city states.
Build and run the guilds for the culture.
If short then you'll have to decide which is better.

 

[Sessy]

Some gold, but the primary way of getting the allies in base game is just doing the quests. Some will even chain. (City state A has a request that you get a resource that City B has so when you fufill a quest to become allies with B you also become allies with A)
And the other way is spies. A spy promoted to secret agent has can get 85% odds of success even with a 60 point spread.
In addition, if you go Freedom, you'll get influence from the level 3 tenet from trade routes to city states for a few more.

yeah treaty organization is strong if you can manage to send multiple trade routes to CS. I didn't know that level 3 spies have such high odds at coups, that's handy. Although after globalization I assume you'd want to switch them out for diplomats.

I think the main reason I felt the need to buy influence with a ton of money was the fact that Alex and Sweden were in the game that I played...Grrrr