Oracle sling COL for spy efforts?

[NaZdReG]

I've been pondering how to augment the great spy points from the great wall. and after a bit of debate I am beginning to wonder if it is possible to

1. snag masonry early enough to start on the great wall in the capitol right after founding a 2nd city (usually doable and safe from barbs)

2. sling via the oracle to code of laws
(research writing while building it, to unlock CoL)

wall must go in capitol, oracle in city #2. when hitting CoL, immediately start on a courthouse in the capitol in order to run a SPY SPECIALIST.

while this is occuring research alphabet. hopefully the 1st spy will come out about the same time as alpha finishes.. if not I would auto target the highest score or whoever is likely to be tech leader. 2nd spy can be used more judiciously.

who would be good for this? after some careful thought I think ghandi would be the perfect candidate.

with myst and mining, he is furthest along on the tech path nessessary for the sling. no anarchy is just extra bonus there. ability to run a priest in the oracle city if you want your #2 or #3 great person to be a prophet.

tech order? this is debateable and kinda depending on if you have a 2 commerce tile that is workable in the beginning.

meditation lets you build monastaries.. but poly leads to monotheism.. org religion to speed up construction of the wall/oracle/courthouse and might be prefered.

so ghandi's tech order would be poly, (for religion) bronze working, (switch to slavery) masonry. begin chopping great wall in capitol. hopefully you can settle near some copper so city #2 can begin production of a couple of defensive axes. if not build extra warriors so power level is sufficient to keep the ai away (wall will hold off barbs)

research monotheism, and switch immediately if you have a state religion. if this adds any speed to the wall's construction great.

next tech is priesthood, immediately begin construction of the oracle in city #2. when the great wall is finished or soon after... capitol can now produce a couple of troops and look for city site #3, maybe 4. research writing.
oracle pops for code of laws. immediately begin producing courthouse in capitol. research alphabet.

begin spying efforts, add spy to capitol to augment normal research against another target and increase great spy points to 8 per turn.

build order would be dependent on local conditions, but I would go
warrior, worker, chop worker, chop/whip settler, great wall, troop, troop, settler, courthouse

city #2 would go warrior, worker, axe?, oracle, troop, settler, temple if you want a great prophet.

thoughts?? gambit worth pursuing?? risky and passive but once the espionage rolls in you'll sling to tech leader for sure.

from the position of adding the spy you are only math away from civil service. but tech stealing will largely dictate what you research (so you aren't overlapping with what can be stolen)

thoughts? would love to hear from the monarch players about its feasability.

NaZ

 

[Phrederick]

Sumeria's Ziggurat could be immensely useful too. Then you don't need to wait for COL to get a spy specialist.

 

[NaZdReG]

already realized wheel will have to get integrated in, probably before or right after masonry. its a quick tech so that shouldn't matter too much. if situation warrants ag or fishing I'd consider deviating for that.

thing I dont like about sumeria is they aren't philo. whole point of this exercise would be to generate multiple great spies.

I'll take a crack at this in the next day or two and see how it goes

NaZ

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I find the main problem with building the GW in the capital is that I almost always want wonders (or national wonders) that don't produce spy points, thus dirtying the pool. With the great difficulty in running builk spy specialists until the Industrial age it can hurt the spy production since it's not consistent.

I'd chop it in my 2nd city, and continue to run more spies there as they become available, and keep the GSpy pool as clean as possible. Build the Oracle in the capital instead. I tried using my capital as the GSpy center but it really held me back from building a lot of wonders that I could've really used, and I found my capital just suffered too much over the long term. Any of the great wonders that give free designated specialists (GL for example) become instant no-no's in your capital, and sometimes even empire wide since they can almost halt your production of GSpies completely.

Long term aim for a production city with forests for Nat'l Park too so you can have plenty of hammers for the Kremlin. I usually hold off on the Nat'l Epic until I can run at least 3 spies so the percentage won't be too bad.

 

[futurehermit]

good idea. i've popped 2 gspies early and it's cool. i made the mistake of targeting two different AIs with them. i think you're better off just picking 1 financial tech buddy and keep picking on him the whole game while you war/expand through others.

the problem is though you want someone who is reasonably close to you because after mission success spies go back to your capital so you want to reduce travel time. but usually close neighbours mean sharpen your axes...

 

[Percy]

the problem is though you want someone who is reasonably close to you because after mission success spies go back to your capital so you want to reduce travel time. but usually close neighbours mean sharpen your axes...

That's what i'm struggling with indeed. That and the fact that, playing at a lower difficulty level, i often find i'm tech leader without even trying, thus negating the advantage of tech stealing.

 

[futurehermit]

tech stealing is definitely better monarch+ i was stealing techs like construction and feudalism

 

[futurehermit]

thoughts?? gambit worth pursuing?? risky and passive but once the espionage rolls in you'll sling to tech leader for sure.

i think this is a solid strat and definitely worth pursuing. i wouldn't call it risky. GW means you can expand in peace and only have to worry about the ai attacking you. oracle means you are denying tech to the ais. col means courthouses to help you expand afterwards. gandhi seems like a solid leader choice.

all in all i think this is a very good idea.

 

[NaZdReG]

just some feedback from my first crack at it.

coastal start, with some silver.. not bad but not great. went fishing then poly, needed to build something other than warriors but still hit hinduism. then BW, wow copper in fat cross extra nice. masonry, start wall, monotheism to get judaism. researched wheel while city #2 got online, started on oracle. built a barracks and some axes to takedown a nearby barb city, researched writing and got the city captured the turn before the oracle popped for COL. researched alpha and started spying on my neighbor.

GREAT GAMBIT wow.. and even from a crappy start with no marble or stone to speed things up.

definately time to put fishing or agriculture and the wheel in the build.

I can post saves if you want

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Frankly, I'm just trying to get the Great Wall built. In 3 off-line BtS games I have yet to get it. Maybe I need to regenerate until I have stone near the start.

It's funny, I'm sure they thought subbing a Great Spy for a Great Engineer from the Great Wall was going to be more balanced, instead it's quite the opposite.

Gandhi does indeed sound like a good choice for this, though ironically he's one of the civs I'd love to have next door if it's successful! Mansa is another ideal neighbour for this. Ragnar might be good to because he's such a tech fiend (and doesn't share until he's Friendly), but he's also more touchy than the other two.

The only caution I can mention is that I think you'd have to be careful, as with all gambits of this nature, about leaving yourself weak if the neighbours are aggressive. If you start with Tokugawa, Shaka, and Montezuma next door, forget about gambits and just build units, because you're going to need them. Otherwise, go for it.

 

[axident]

I'm not sure what you're doing but I've had a wonder stranglehold using Louis (Ind/Cre) for 2 games running, the second a near-total monopoly as I founded 3 cities early: marble/sheep next to Zulu capital, gold was in my capital's fat cross, and stone I REX'd to. I was near a bunch of ivory that I settled later on for Statue of Zeus.

Creative = Stonehenge is really optional though sometimes I go for it anyway so as to skip building 3 monuments as the Zeus pre-req.

worker

warrior

settler

stole worker from China

start GW in capital OR in 2nd city and help it along with chopping-in the meantime have been beelining for Oracle

capital builds settler if not going for GW, 2nd (or 3rd) city going for Oracle--not possible to delay that that long unless you are Industrious and/or have marble

research writing

Oracle done 1-2 turns after writing, good for Code of Laws and founding Confu

GW serves up GSpy, Oracle eventually produces prophet for shrine, but I built a ton of wonders and had all 4 core cities making wonders, during one point (Aesthetics = wonder logjam).

China DoW on me later on after one of my cities.. the GW city that I tacked another wonder onto, I think, got one of China's cities to revolt to my side. I had to temporarily suspend wonder production everywhere but my Pyramids city, and China couldn't break my small herd of axes and spears. I later destroyed the rest of china with CR-upgraded swords and cats.

Monarch/Standard size Inland Sea (though it should work on most maps)/Normal speed.

 

[aelf]

I don't think I'll try this sort of gambit in a real game unless I have either stone or marble. But of course, this may be necessary if one is looking to get 2 Great Spies as the first 2 GPs. The first isn't that much of a problem, but without a spy specialist to augment the Great Wall's GPP, I don't think it's possible to get the second in a practical manner.

But, then again, you might be able to plan to get one as the third GP. Have you considered that?

 

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,

I have to weigh your suggestion against the fact that you play emperor rather than monarch. from the emc's I've seen you play they AI is much quicker to wonders and its a tougher fight.

sisuitil, the only way I've managed to get the wall without stone is through mad quantities of choppage and a fairly strict beeline. I have been able to go mining, bw, masonry but it needs to be that fast. if you start with mining you can get wheel to hook up stone if nessessary.

here are some saves at 4000bc, 2280bc, before and after oracle finishes, and 1100bc.

I managed to grab both wonders without either stone or marble, but had to clearcut my cities to do it. org religion proved useful and good deviation.
would be easier with either resource. having copper in capitol was very helpful for early defense, and to take the barb city resulting in 3 holy cities under my control.

sorry I didn't take any screenshots. I don't know if this can be done on emperor, but you should atleast be able to grab the wall which will help you catch up on tech. I'm doing this on monarch marathon.. sisuitil you should be able to do it if you beeline.

NaZ

 

[NaZdReG]

just a small addition to the thoughts on this.

for a philo leader, great people can come early and often. is a spy really the best choice?? or to put it another way.. is there another possibility? perhaps oracle slinging to metal casting and running an engineer in the capitol rather than a spy.

of cource if I had stone.. the pyramids chopped out might be flat out better.

I don't think they will nerf the spy's that hard.. at most you can achieve tech parity with the AI.. after the fact. this is powerful but also dangerous.

NaZ

 

[futurehermit]

and doesn't share until he's Friendly

I keep telling you he will trade at pleased Why don't you believe me

@Nazdreg: I think this strat is quite powerful. Yes, you get tech parity, BUT you do so without trading the AI any of YOUR techs. So, you avoid WFYABTA and eventually pull away in techs because you are essentially teching from 2 empires. You can see what they are teching so you tech something else and steal their tech. Eventually you pull away because you aren't trading anything to them. In fact in a couple of my tries with this approach I had to feed the AI tech to keep their pace going so I could keep stealing

Is this a game-breaking strat? I would say no. But it is certainly something to have in your arsenal and if the situation calls for it it can be very powerful.

 

[NaZdReG]

nice to see one of you take a crack at it to validate and give solid feedback. I was able to pull it off with neither stone or marble, and if you look at the saves some CRAAAAAPY terrain past the capitol.

I agree that the tech pairity is strong but not overpowered. I was able to gobble up math, construction, IW, metal casting.. all while teching to feudalism. I had one of them show up on my doorstep with 3 horse archers 5 swords and some cats and all died to a stack of lbows (2 cats helped weaken the stack) they're all atleast 60 turns from feudalism. will be teching to guilds and running them over with knights.

also has a nice side effect of controlling 3 of the earliest religions. with spiritual you can choose who you want to have the positive diplo bonus with.

as for feeding them tech.. this is how I stay at 100% research mid game. once you have currency you get to sell everyone techs for gold which can actually boost relations if it is something good.

will definately do this again and post more feedback. for now I am removing the saves to keep up some room in my box.

NaZ

i wonder if I can get sisuitil to do an ALC with this strat.. not sure if he has done india yet i'll have to go check

 

[aelf]

^^I'll attempt an Ottoman version soon enough, though I probably won't be banking on getting Oracle as well.

 

[NaZdReG]

very cool aelf, will be looking forward to it.

NaZ

 

[NaZdReG]

I've actually hit a snag with this strategy. it relies on the AI teching to desirable mid game techs. I had 10000 pts of epsionage against toku and brennus, the only 2 left on my continent.

I probably could have done more to avoid my predicament but got stuck because both of them were my religion, and I couldn't really attack either without getting dogpiled. even though I had massive espionage and tech lead for the tiem being.. those points are largely used right now only for forment unhappiness (i'm bombing all their cities) and bulldozing enemy cottages. I'm trying to tech my way to macemen or knights to see if I can get enough of a power advantage to get outta this mess.

one problem though.. the damn apopolistic palace. I got outvoted (of cource the ai voted for itself.. shoulda seen that one coming) so if I attack they can force vote for peace and there isnt a damn thing I can do about it.. so what happens?? of cource they vote for no declaration of war. not sure if I can get outta this one.

NaZ

 

[Percy]

Raze the AP.