Oracle... so broken (go Egypt!)

[erislover]

I just recently started a game as Egypt, and got the Oracle as my wonder. As usual, I devoted all my first city's workers to production so I could crank out a warrior army and take out a nearby civ. I didn't even realize I had the Oracle until I attacked, and the advisor warned me against it. I listened. Next turn I attacked and won, but not without taking damage. Next turn, crazy as I was with this godlike foresight, I decided to attack again, even though I only had one health. Of course, the oracle suggested I back off, and I did.

And, wouldn't you know it, there, in enemy territory, with two damage to my army and no upgrades (I wasn't even veteran), I healed.

And next turn, when I would lose again, I heeded the oracle, and healed. Napoleon didn't stand a chance against this kind of power.

(I searched the forum but didn't find anyone mentioning this... am I just rehashing what everyone knows?)

 

[Raw Power]

Even if the Oracle is 100% correct, it just tells you what you should already know. Or that's a little bit harsh as the oracle knows the outcome of the random seed, so you'll know if you loose even when being underdog or superior. But generally it just takes the "luck" out of the picture, adds a little culture but in the whole it's far better to get for instance the colossus or pyramids.

 

[eireksten]

You got to heal after backing off with the Oracle? Was it an automatic heal? I guess you were outside of his borders then?

@Raw Power: I'm pretty sure you can't get the pyramids, the great library or the great wall from the egyptian bonus...

 

[erislover]

You got to heal after backing off with the Oracle? Was it an automatic heal? I guess you were outside of his borders then?

Nope, standing right inside his borders.

 

[Shinseng]

Occasionally the Oracle does get it wrong. Once it told me I would lose, and by accident I hit the button to fight anyway and my inferior unit won. I'd assumed that it pre-calculated the battle to how it would actually play out, eliminating any randomness, but apparently not. Still, I wouldn't base a strategy around ignoring it's advice, lol.

 

[logical_psycho]

The Oracle is the very gayest wonder that any civ has ever had. Usually it is already obsolete before the game really gets going or before anyone had the chance to buy it. Besides that it is not useful at all. There almost isn't a worse way to spend your hammers than on an Oracle. The only reason I built it is to get it into my treasury hall thingie.

 

[erislover]

I played another game as Egypt last night (I'm just going through civ-by-civ, victory type-by-type) but I couldn't confirm this weird unexpected-healing behavior, as my closest enemy died without me losing health, and by the time I got around to killing again the Oracle was obsolete. When I healed, it was with a normal warrior army in an enemy culture zone. I was in a forest. I have two more victory types left, so I will keep trying to reproduce it.

In case it wasn't clear, the part that was so cool was not the advertised Oracle effect, which is just so-so (nice for free, wouldn't pay for it), it was that my unit healed in enemy territory when it shouldn't have been able to.

 

[CrimsonEdge]

Even if the Oracle is 100% correct, it just tells you what you should already know.

That's not entirely true. The outcome of a battle is determined before the fight even starts by the seed. You'll never know if you'll actually win or not unless you simply over power your enemy by a large amount, something you don't really do often in Deity.

The Oracle isn't anything I use because I don't attack a city unless I'm certain I will win, however, it's invaluable with the Aztecs.

 

[Raw Power]

That's not entirely true. The outcome of a battle is determined before the fight even starts by the seed. You'll never know if you'll actually win or not unless you simply over power your enemy by a large amount, something you don't really do often in Deity.

The Oracle isn't anything I use because I don't attack a city unless I'm certain I will win

First you say that what I'm saying isn't entirely true because it's almost never certain that you will win. Then you say that you don't attack unless you are sure you will win, which means that either you hardly ever attack since to be sure you would need something better then 100/1 in strength comparison and by the time that happens the oracle is obsolete anyway, and also you have the overrun advantage way before that.

What I meant, and i think you mean as well is that you should know that if you are stronger then the enemy you will most likely win, if you are weaker you will most likely loose. The bigger the differences, the more certain the bet and the less need you have for the oracle, but generally if you can't afford to loose then you don't attack. If the gains are bigger then the potential loss then you attack.

 

[erislover]

Oracle changes that estimate. It is an additional source of information. While I can't say I can confirm that I may win if it suggests I will lose (someone else here has done that), I can say I have never lost when it didn't warn me. Without the Oracle, yes, you shouldn't press unless you have an advantage. But it is a different thing to suggest that the Oracle itself doesn't change the boundries at which one would say one has the advantage. In short, while it is obsolete quickly, if you have it when you're playing Egypt, it is a ridiculous advantage early on. Think about a stack of three armies outside a city. It is easy to hold this position. It is not easy to take the city. Three armies may not be enough to take the city. But if you can avoid costly battles where three armies become two, these three armies may be worth four or even five. (Unless one uses the hard disk as their own meta-Oracle. Then I can see dismissing this power.)

 

[CrimsonEdge]

First you say that what I'm saying isn't entirely true because it's almost never certain that you will win. Then you say that you don't attack unless you are sure you will win, which means that either you hardly ever attack since to be sure you would need something better then 100/1 in strength comparison and by the time that happens the oracle is obsolete anyway, and also you have the overrun advantage way before that.

What I meant, and i think you mean as well is that you should know that if you are stronger then the enemy you will most likely win, if you are weaker you will most likely loose. The bigger the differences, the more certain the bet and the less need you have for the oracle, but generally if you can't afford to loose then you don't attack. If the gains are bigger then the potential loss then you attack.

Eh? Knowing the strength of an enemy inside of a city is not something you should know, even in the early game. You'll know they are stronger, but just because they are stronger does not mean you will lose. This is where the Oracle comes in. You can easily take risks that you normally wouldn't be able to take in the early game with this wonder, and that is why it is so powerful.

The idea that you'll know if you win or lose isn't really accurate. As I said, it's the seed that determines your win (or it should, as this is what has determined wins or losses in every Civ game I have played... if you still have a chance of losing when the oracle tells you that you will win then it is bugged and not worth it, but that's not the point of what I'm saying) and even if you have 6.9 times the power of your enemy, you still have a chance of losing.

Like wise, even if you are 6.9 times weaker than the stack you are fighting, you still have a chance of winning. The Oracle allows you to take a risk you wouldn't normally take in a game to see if you would win or not. That is a lot of power, and it's something that allow you to take deity level cities without losing a single army in the early game with inferior units.

 

[bardolph]

I once built the Oracle off of a Great Builder pop at King level, and conquered two entire civilizations with two Keshik armies.

A side effect of using the Oracle is that you are able to win low-odds combat, which means faster promotions and a much higher chance of spawning a Great General, which in turn gets even faster promotions.

Without the Oracle, defeating an equal-tech neighbor requires sacrificing a lot of armies in order to soften up defenders. The Oracle allows you to save those armies for future battles.

It's a big deal.

 

[Raw Power]

CrimsonEdge: The trireme comes with a militia that acts as a scout, that's how you know "early game" if you are stronger. If it's extremely early then it's only on Emperor and Deity that you might run into Archer armies which "should" be the only thing that truly stands out of having better odds then you.

Besides the option to withdraw from combat (i know defender gets free upgrade) is valid, you can still take out settlers, other cities and lesser defenders when you live to fight another day, and you might even gain more from it then stealing that early capital.

And according to various reports the seed is then broken, as people have won when oracle says you won't, and lost when it say you will win. So it's not 100% certain, but I do admit it's nice to have, but not nicer then the other wonders that you could get or could have gotten.

 

[Alexandru]

Occasionally the Oracle does get it wrong. Once it told me I would lose, and by accident I hit the button to fight anyway and my inferior unit won.

How can you fight when Oracle says you will lose? In the few occasions I had the Oracle there was no possibility of fighting when the Oracle says NO. You just press OK and the unit loses it's turn.

 

[eireksten]

How can you fight when Oracle says you will lose? In the few occasions I had the Oracle there was no possibility of fighting when the Oracle says NO. You just press OK and the unit loses it's turn.

When it does that, it means that you wouldn't have wounded the enemy at all, so there is no reason to fight.

Otherwise, you might want to kamikaze the first unit in order to let the next one get an easier target. In these cases you'll get two options.

 

[AznWarlord]

Wow, I noticed that half the people aren't even reading what you wrote. They automatically assume that the Oracle went wrong (which it DOES NOT). As for th heal after you backed off, I think that may in fact be the bug. Are you playing on Console or DS? The DS is full of bugs.

 

[thelibra]

This is where the Oracle comes in. You can easily take risks that you normally wouldn't be able to take in the early game with this wonder, and that is why it is so powerful.

Beautifully written response, and has totally changed my mind on the Oracle. I really hope I have time to try it in a game tonight before or after class.