Orbis Lore & History

[arkham4269]

Here is what I'm thinking. While we are all doing things like the Civlopedia and the like, it would be nice if perhaps we could all put our heads together and maybe sketch out a rough time-line for the game.

One issue I have with some of the lore from FF, for example, is it seems to contradict the game year clock. The the Chislev of FF, they supposedly were decimated by the CoE while they were marching to war against the Bannor. When did this happen, especially since the game starts out with the Age of Winter passing?

Anyway, I think that we'd do well to have a 'completed' game in mind similar to how it was done in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. In that game history the Gaians eventually wiped out the Spartans. You knew this by the different tech explanations as the game progressed.

So I think it would be good to try and get a map, a time line and perhaps work who likes who. I don't know how the game figures out who the worst enemy is, but you'd expect certain groups would lean toward certain other civs to put the hate on.

I must say, it's too bad we could appropriate the seminal mod Rhyse & Fall of Civilization for a offshoot since many of the FfH/FF/Orbis races seem more like ones that would 'pop-up' later. I mean from their history, the Sheaim would come later after the Amurites and perhaps it would take awhile for the Doviello and the Ngolome to become organized enough to be considered a full, active Civ.

 

[arkham4269]

In regards to maps, I think we'd do well to perhaps fiddle around with this one if it would be all right

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7998515&postcount=25

My view is perhaps the Rinwell Island needs to be larger to accommodate the Scions since the flavored start seems to like putting them on islands anyway.

As mentioned on the Ngolome post, perhaps the Labruscum peninsula could be expanded to the west (left side of the map) to accommodate this race when they come online.

I'm thinking that if the Grigi Plains was tilted right at bit and more land put on where the Adian Plains are, it would allow for more room. I mean the Matzatl need to be somewhere warm and swampy and so far by our 'pedia entries, the Mechanos need to border the Bannor somewhere.

 

[Opera]

Oh, I like that.

Although, I'm not sure how Ahwaric will respond. I don't know if he put that much thinking in how Orbis differs from FfH lorewise; he may have and it would be great. However, I agree with you that it would be nice to have a set idea of, at least, some events in the Orbis Erebus (Orberebus? Erebis? ) to write pedia entries (if you let someone else do some, arkham!).

The primary thing to know would be if Orbis Erebus conforms to the FfH scenarios. Personally, I'm not sure I want this for a few reasons: Ethne is murdered (my poor Ethne ), the Doviellos are nothing else but the dogs of the Illians, some civs aren't really involved, etc. As Kael said somewhere, the scenarios aren't "canon" in the sense that they are a possibility and that, after all, every game played by everyone is a possibility. Even though, it could be called canon by default or not at all. We can then choose whether to: follow this non really canon way, follow the scenarios (but in which way? some scenarios have multiple possible outcomes) or just think an history by ourselves, a history implicating Mechanos, Scions and Mazatl (I dare not adding Ngomele on this list).

I'm in favor of the third option.

So, starting from there, but pending Ahwaric response, I have a few thing to say, mostly concerning the Ngomele. In my mind, their history doesn't go very far into the Age of Rebirth as I've mostly worked out their ancient history, before settling as a full civ under the Council. However, arkham's recent posts made me think about some things, principally their relations with other civilizations and their location in the world.

I took the same map that arkham posted above and searched an isthmus because that's where the Ngomele are. The only one satisfying is the one south of Labruscum (I think it's a pretty arbitrary shape and that it could be enlarged and turned a bit more towards Kingsport). However, the isthmus is but an idea. I could see them being west of Labruscum, south of Braduk.

I think that, at some point, a conflict between them and the Clan would fire. Perhaps the whole east coast would enter war: Bannor vs. Clan, Clan vs. Ngomele, Ngomele vs. Bannor; plus allies: Ngomele & Lanun (or not, I just thought they could get along). Perhaps even the Mechanos could seize the occasion and lauch their assault against the Bannor. And the Hippus would be gladly invited by some side to take part. The Ngomele being certainly a smaller civ than its two potential enemies, they could end up crushed to oblivion, or expanding (BRADUK FOR THE NGOMELE!!), or fleeing in Elohim and/or Lanun lands. They could also go fanatical, fusing with the Green Sea and destroying a bunch of Bannor & Clan troups, earning everlasting respect...

Other than that, I would like to see some redemption. I don't know exactly the scenarios of FfH but I don't remember seeing true redemption. For example, I could see some Svartalfar putting an end to the Splintered Court by simply stabbing Faeryl (after all, they do it all the time). I'm thinking Volanna right now. In my mind, she is Faeryl murderer (maybe Rivanna's?), thus putting a wild blow to the morale of Svartalfar, thus allowing Ljosalfar to reunite the elves. Instead of being executed, Volanna, despite her "good" deed, is exiled and finally reach the Grigori lands... where she became an adventurer. (who said Volanna could be chosen to lead the Grigori? Me!)

This thread gave me ideas. I so thank you arkham

Edit: Maybe if we follow the scenarios could we take the story where they stopped? i.e. using the whole Laroth cliffhanger.

 

[arkham4269]

Well I'm thinking less of changing the current lore as more to accommodate things like the Matzatl, Mechanos and the Scions...and Ngolome if/when they are added.

I mean obviously these races sort of change things a bit.

Actually I was thinking in a sense you almost need two 'completed' games to work with since some actions/heroes and the like only happen when the AC counter is really high. Obviously if Good is winning, the AC count would never get that high and if Evil is walking hither and yon, then you'd be able to build the Mithril Golem for example.

 

[arkham4269]

As to the "Third" path, obviously this is Ahwaric's mod so he gets the final word. I would think that the 'best' way is to keep all the 'pre-history' lore from FfH and then mostly start fresh, if only because the differences in the newer races would change the mix.

I mean just think of the impact of a Civ that is not only atheistic like the Grigori but in some way might actively push a aggressive humanism. I see the Mechanos acknowledging the Gods existence (kind of hard not to) but rather seem them less as "Gods" and more just beings that have more power & knowledge. Thus the Mechanos see them as beings that can one day be supplanted by 'man' (man in the sense of mortals, not just humans).

Obviously followers of the different religions aren't going to take to the spreading of that idea! Plus, I would think there would be a dark, seductive pull of the Scions. Vampirism has always had two seductions, the sexual underpinning of giving in to the vampire and 'taken' and the whole thing about immortality. Since the Calibim vampires seem more intent on 'raising' folk for cattle and not sharing their gift with all but a chosen few, the appeal of the Scion to others in Erebus can't be denied. Plus since they are bringing back a Patrian past, they also have that allure of what was once great.

I totally agree about the Doviello. I like Ahwaric's change of them. I really see them potentially not just being a bunch of crazed beserkers. In fact, I could see their 'good' leader pushing for a jihad. Why? Well the Doviello survived by casting off most of the trappings of civilization, becoming one with their animal friends and survived and became quite strong. With the end of the Age of Winter, what happens? The factions of Erebus all starting building stuff, starting wars, spreading religions and causing the AC counter to go up. In essence, starting the whole cycle again.

So a 'good' Doviello leader might see his/her job to purge the world of all that stuff so the people of Erebus could go back to a simpler life. Sort of a ideal "now of the wolf thought" as shown in Wendy Pini's Elfquest series. No need for big cities or spells or all that. Just a simple existence where there isn't a vast gap between the haves and have nots. No need for religions wars and the like.

(Aside, not saying they should be, but I could see the Doviello being a bit agnostic as a trait as well in that they worship their ancestors and their animal totems. Asking for Gods help and protection I would think would go against their self-reliance)

Anyway, chances that have been made in Orbis already seem to mean we need to write our own lore. Plus, minor leaders sort of change the mix.

 

[arkham4269]

Obviously Ahwaric will (hopefully) weigh in on this important question, but I think another good thing would be to sort of lock down each Civ in which (if any) historical and/or fictional theme they have.

For example, the Scions are obviously Roman with Roman type names.

The Mechanos are sort of Renaissance/Steampunk Italians with names to match.

The Doviello are a mix of Germanic/Norse Viking types with (in my opinion) a big dash of Cimmerian from Robert E. Howards Conan series.

The Malakim use Arabic names and have a mix of Middle Eastern cultures. Of course that is a big circle. There are a lot of historical cultures to choose from.

The Lanun, to me, are a bit weird. Sure their artwork is all from Pirates! but what is their culture like? Are they similar to the Elizabethan English? So far the names seem to match that in a way. Or are as a culture more like the Polynesians? How much do they go in for their own government? I mean it would seem their culture would be a loose confederation of Pirate Kings.

The Lurchirp are another weird one for me. I mean the Khazad are 'easy' as they fit the 'standard' semi-Tolkein dwarven race. Yet this doesn't apply to the Lurchirp. Since they live out under the skies, I could almost see them more like Tolkien hobbits in that they are an earnest people, who'd rather be left alone and who take great pride in the handiwork that they do. But what sort of name is Lurchirp?

The Sidar is another mystery as a cultural theme. However, their names are mostly Hebrew derivatives.

The Elohim are another from a language to pick from is a bit hard. So many of the names seem to have been created using some fantasy name generator.

Anyway, that's just a start. I know a lot of folks out there come from different backgrounds, especially in gaming. I never was a fan of Warhammer or WoW so obviously my concepts of some of the races are different than people who like those games as an example.

 

[Seon]

Luchuirup I believe is city builders with bunch of scupting studios. They also have enchanted lifs (elevators)

 

[Opera]

Two posts by Kael about the canon-ness of scenarios: here and here. I love those posts. They seem to be made of freedom to create.

 

[Jabie]

The Lurchirp are another weird one for me. I mean the Khazad are 'easy' as they fit the 'standard' semi-Tolkein dwarven race. Yet this doesn't apply to the Lurchirp. Since they live out under the skies, I could almost see them more like Tolkien hobbits in that they are an earnest people, who'd rather be left alone and who take great pride in the handiwork that they do. But what sort of name is Lurchirp?

IIRC, I think they're meant to be a mixture of gnomes, halflings and dwarves from the original D&D campaign.

 

[xienwolf]

Unfortunately I am in "skimming mode" right now so haven't read the entire thread, but the opening lines made me want to respond anyway:

Lore is good and should support a civ internally, but shouldn't be expected to connect every civ perfectly to one another. Just like in base Civ, you will have instances where 2 civilizations are in the game which in history could not have possibly existed at the same time (like Mayans meeting the Americans, and George Washington leading you during the Stone Age). I think that the same ought to apply to FfH based mods. Thus making a Patria or Aifon Civilization should be not just possible, but HIGHLY encouraged. Though the majority of the lore claims we are modelling the world post-Mulcarn, we don't HAVE TO DO SO. The only thing which solidly links us to that time period for the start of the game is if you enable the End of Winter gameoption. True, some Civilizations didn't exist before that period (Clan and Illians), but that returns to the America vs Mayan setup, where we are simply allowing the big "What If...?" which endears Civ to so many people.

 

[Valkrionn]

I completely agree.. Just want to emphasize the 'support a civ internally' part. In my view, the lore shouldn't influence what civs are placed next to which other civ, shouldn't try to set a concrete date, or anything that would affect interactions between civilizations.... But the gameplay of each civ should reflect their lore, and the basic ideas behind them.

 

[arkham4269]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying in the game such civs would be here, here and here but only on the map to be used mostly for lore/storytelling for use in things like the Civlopedia. I personally feel that when the Civlopedia and tech explanations operate under a certain 'meta-game' that it flows better.

Again, I'm saying for the purposes of writing, we act like "In the Beginning Ahwaric played a game of Orbis...and it was good." What happened during this first mythical game? This, this, and this and for the purposes of lore we'll act like it's history.

Certainly every game is going to be different as is every map (unless one is using a custom map with the Civ's placed in certain areas) will be. My only thinking on how lore might impact the game is perhaps deciding (if it is something that would be good to do) is have certain tendencies for some Civs to not like others. As mentioned previously, the Bannor might normally through game mechanics be a bit more aloof toward the neutral Mechanos, but the underlying philosophy of theirs is almost worst than say the OO to the Bannor as it 'poisons the minds' of people that would normally support the Bannor. Does that mean I'm saying the Bannor should always attack the Mechanos? No, I'm just saying the somehow the game figures out "Worst enemy of..." and I'm saying that perhaps lore and story-telling might help figure that out instead of it just being a algorithm based on alignment and civics.

Again, I just felt that Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri's way of having that 'original' game explained through techs and the 'pedia makes things more professional and not this odd hodge-podge of (lore wise) contradictory entries.

 

[Wauthan]

I think I see where you're coming from here, Arkham4269.

Hmmm... Well if this is going to be functional premise for the Civilopedia we'll have to assume that nearly all the Orbis content appears late in the current age of the FFH setting. Otherwise it would be hard to explain the lack of connection to the already present entries from FFH.

The added trouble with Mazatl and Scions are that their Civ entries are already complete. And Mechanos thematically finished as well. Unless someone is prepared to rewrite a LOT of text it's hard to justify any attempt of a canon version of "Orbistory". There would simply be too many loose ends. This is one of the reasons why I haven't written any suggestions for Civilopedia entries. They all need to be very generic and out of context in order to fit in.

But since it's been a while since I had a good rant:

Mechanos is a very good candidate to have budded from the Grigori culture, possibly due to influence from both Sidar mysticism and Luichurp magitech. They have a strong explorer theme to them, and an exceptionally alien culture (though not architecture) compared to the other civs. I can see them getting into all kinds of diplomatic calamities, though they might be well received by Hippus and Lanun. All civilizations would be both fascinated and frightened by the Mechanos inventions. Perhaps elves and dwarves in particular would find reason to worry. The elves seems to rely on magic quite a lot and thematically they far removed from the concept of industrial expansion. The dwarves would likely see the Mechanos like some kind of horribly warped mirror image.

Mazatl are perhaps easiest explained by a severe case of isolationism. I'm pretty sure other civs would have mentioned a whole culture of lizard people if they had even the slightest knowledge of them. I would assume that Mazatl and Elohim would be fast friends, considering the major overlap in their cultures. Their rarity is also expressed in that the Balseraph do not use them in their freak shows. Perhaps they die in captivity? It would be important to create a story on just how the Mazatl encountered the rest of the Orbis civs, and the reaction this caused.

The Scions are way harder to crack. They obviously appeared very late in the current age, or there would be references to them all across the Civilopedia. The Sidar obviously would go completely postal once they heard about this, possibly launching a full scale holy war against them. The Calabim would also recoil from these news, since the Scions are nearly the opposite of their own culture. The Amurites would likely be the civilization that would be least opposed to trading with the Scions.

 

[arkham4269]

The added trouble with Mazatl and Scions are that their Civ entries are already complete. And Mechanos thematically finished as well. Unless someone is prepared to rewrite a LOT of text it's hard to justify any attempt of a canon version of "Orbistory".

You seem unclear on the concept of anal retentive gamers. Certainly there are things that need to be rewritten once they get moved to Orbis. Again this isn't a ding or slur on the original but just needing to make it fit. If there is one thing I learned as a intelligence analyst is don't reinvent the wheel. If someone else has done the work, use theirs. However, nothing screams unprofessional than a PowerPoint briefing where one has taken slides from different other presentations and then not going through and changing them so they all appear to have been written by one person. Same goes for civlopedia entries. Plus, most of the time they don't need to be thrown out, just tweaked a bit. I mean a good chunk of my civlopedia entries are stolen from real works or Wikipedia entries and I just fiddle around with the names and add some flavor comments.

So obviously if we, for example, go with my idea of using Korinna as three different alignment leaders for the Scion, we're going to have to change the entry (or at least break it up into three entries). Additionally since right now Orbis doesn't use Cualli, I'd bet some of the Matzatl entries probably need to be changed and I don't think this is a bad thing.

Mechanos is a very good candidate to have budded from the Grigori culture, possibly due to influence from both Sidar mysticism and Luichurp magitech. They have a strong explorer theme to them, and an exceptionally alien culture (though not architecture) compared to the other civs.

Well the Grigori and the Lurchirp definitely have reason to spawn the Mechanos. The Grigori seem to have a 'let the others do what they will; we'll have no part in it" and as has been mentioned the Lurchirp are sort of hobbit/gnomes that like to build and craft and also want to be left alone. It would seem the flashy types, those dissatisfied with that static culture would leave and gravitate together. One might say they are the Sheaim to the Grigori/Lurchirp Amurites; cast out for 'going to far' as it were.

I can see them getting into all kinds of diplomatic calamities, though they might be well received by Hippus and Lanun.

The Lanun at first, maybe, but I'd think they'd rapidly see them as competitors. I'd think the Hippus would either see them as another employer or someone with really unique loot.

The elves seems to rely on magic quite a lot and thematically they far removed from the concept of industrial expansion.

Well I think what would get them is that the Fellowship of Leaves is less about worshiping a God(s) rather than honoring the system that was created by them. To be one with the rhythms of the seasons and the like and to seek a balance between what is natural and what can be 'naturally' create. As George Carlin once commented about, a beaver dam changes the environment to suit themselves and often 'hurts' other animals in the process. Is this not what we do? Obviously the elves would try to find a way to build society and not muck everything up, hence their ability to build on forest tiles.

I touched on this a bit in one of my Civlopedia entries. Once you start thinking in terms of production units and shifts, people rapidly become part of that equation. We see it all the time; the accountants and 'bean-counters' dealing with people as abstractions and not a real people. Looking at the sweat-shops and company towns of the Industrial Revolutionary Age shows where that path leads. It can also really make war more terrible. For the most part, civilians are supposed to be off-limits in war. Yet come the American Civil War, civilians started to become 'war production workers' so by the time we get to WW II, bombing civilians is 'okay' because they go to work in the factories making weapons, right? Again, once you start seeing people as mere 'units' you can kill them with impunity. I think the elves would seriously take a instant dislike to that sort of mentality.

I mean do you lived to work or work to live? As I've said about the Doviello and the concept of them as barbarians, who is the savage when you live a life where you have lots of free time to sing songs, be with your family and aren't tied down to a lot of stuff? How is the Mechanos 'drone' who gets up early to toil in the factories (probably in unhealthy conditions) all day for a mere pittance just to go home exhausted to his company shanty. Sure they have lumos bulb and the company store sells many wondrous (and expensive) things the Doviello don't have...but does having those material things make the Mechanos happy? Sure it's an age-old socio-economic issue but it does show why a good alignment Doviello might exhort them on a crusade to 'save' the down-trodden masses of the Mechanos and free them from their wage slavery. Hmmm, freedom from being a wage slave....what was the inter-dimensional number to the Doviello again?

The dwarves would likely see the Mechanos like some kind of horribly warped mirror image.

I think this depends on the Mechanos leader. I mean do you have a culture based on the Enlightenment, with nature philosopher adeptus running around trying to figure out things from a Humanist point of few or do you end up with Robber Barons and Captains of Industries cranking out whiz-bang steam warbots to run around and subjugate the natives? I mean steampunk owes a lot of flavor to Victorian England and that was a dualistic culture if there ever was one. On one hand it stood for learning, culture and high-minded ideals...that was built on wretched practices in their colonies along with a egotism and racial bias of thinking they were the End all Be all. Again, I think it depends on the leader.

Their rarity is also expressed in that the Balseraph do not use them in their freak shows. Perhaps they die in captivity? It would be important to create a story on just how the Mazatl encountered the rest of the Orbis civs, and the reaction this caused.

Hence my post saying that the CoE shouldn't have lizardmen units since we have the Matzatl and probably should change the lizardmen barbarians to be rare as well. But then again I'm pushing to make the goblins in the CoE kobolds so we can have a goblin race patterned after FF's Archos so what do I know?

The Sidar obviously would go completely postal once they heard about this, possibly launching a full scale holy war against them.

This statement is EXACTLY why I brought this thread up. By 'cannonical' FfH lore, it is written that the Sidar hate the undead, but their civilization has almost no units, spells or inclination to this end. It's like someone thought that sounded neat and put that in the civlopedia entry and then forgot to do anything about it. First off, fixing that, I would think would go a long way to make the Sidar less boring. Plus the demi-immorality of the Scions is nicely documented but the way the Sidar do it isn't. Or at least I haven't read anywhere how it is done. Anyway, I totally agree; by what we know, the Sidar would hate the Scions just as much as the Bannor would hate the Sheaim. Actually for that matter, the Sidar would hate the Calibim and probably would really refuse to use death mana.

 

[Ahwaric]

Whew, finally got time to read this thread.

I like the idea.

There is no such thing as my spreadsheet what happened when....
I just add features and the lore comes from them. I think it is the way it works in Ffh as well. If lore condradicts the neat feature - well, bad luck for the lore.
Also, I think it is the right way - more fun to play that lore heavy but boring gameplay.

So, I think we should honor FfH lore, but if it is needed, change it. I think scions appeared quite early in age of rebirth and try to spread their propaganda far and wide so their accomodation requires lore changes. Same goes for mechanos. It is mostly Age of Ice that changed them, they started their own empire just after Ice disappeared.
Mazatl can be a bit easier, as the isolationism and remote placement of their ancestral cities might be an explanation for lack of info. Most civs just know bands of feral Lizzies that have probably more in common with cualli than typical Mazatl.
Ngomelle I think are a bit "lesser" race - not particulary numerous, weak at start but able to achieve greatness in later game. So it might be quite easy to fit them in.

We can try to construct a frame for Orbis' Erebus history, but we can't do it too detailed as it would need too much changes every time new features are added.

Now a few words on specific civs.
I like arkham's idea of Doviello and Mechanos. I was really tired with boring doviello and current mechanics and proposed lore make them more unique. And the ideas for mechanos are exactly what I think. They are heavily influenced by italian renaissance, Verocchio is a bit like Leonardo DaVinci, but with no art skills. But there is a darker side to technology, too, and the factory drone idea got it perfectly.

Mazatl will get their dark Cualli side, but I decided to keep the name for the civ. So the description needs to include Cualli history. I am mostly concerned with mechanics for now, so it will wait till after d or simply, you can do it.

Sidar are enigmatic, but the way that can be summarized by "boring". Not much lore, not much fun from mechanics. So they need a change. Anti-undead is a good idea, but we need more. Will try to come up with something.

When I think of Elohim, I get Byzantine monks in my mind. Cappadocia monasteries and Mount Athos, with some Constantinople-like cities (but with less carnal pleasures )

Lanun are a bit like tortuga pirates from Pirates of Carraibean, but also merchants of East India Company (English, but more Dutch)

Luirchup are gnomes. Lantan gnomes from D&D?. They do things mechanos do, but using magic and technology fusion. I think magic prevails.

I ilke the idea of goblin civ. But kind of short on time now...

 

[arkham4269]

I ilke the idea of goblin civ. But kind of short on time now...

I just brought up the goblin idea for two reason...well maybe three.

1. I like the idea of goblins being the dark mirror version of dwarves as orcs are the dark mirror version of man and/or elves. It fits the dualistic nature of the lore of FfH.

2. I like the Archos as a concept, especially since they are rather unique and right now adding civs is all about can they add something unique? I think that is the biggest problem with the current Chinese/Korean/Japanese civ idea is that other than neat animations and some super-assassins, they don't have a lot going for them uniqueness wise. Hence my comment that perhaps a existing race like the Sidar be 'taken' over and made over. I mean for the most part does it matter if the Sidar use their current 'cannonical' FfH graphcis or get changed over to a more Asian look? The units don't change and the 'ghost' assassin is pretty much a good fit for the ninja anyway. Then it's just a matter figuring out why how their version of immortality fits and them hating the undead in a way.

Not to get totally off track but it does occur to me that as I've said in the past, that Chinese and Japanese (Tokugawa era) were very static cultures. Indeed many scholarly things point out that while the Chinese 'invented everything' their conservative nature and desire for order made it so that even if you did 'build a better mousetrap' you wouldn't be allowed to really use it since it wasn't 'the way we've always done it' - so perhaps that ties in with the Sidar's brand of immortality; they somehow put themselves in a form of 'stasis' or 'pause' that freezes them in time in a way. One might think of it as how the One Ring prolonged life by 'stretching' life. So instead of a minute being a real minute, to the Sidar that minute of 'mortal' life turns out to be something like a month, year what have you. Anyway, it's something to think about. Now where were we? Oh yes, goblins.

Anyway the third reason to like them is that it enables a existing civ to be brought in without massive changes that eat up a lot of time. As I've mentioned before, I would think the biggest change would be a graphic one (changing the human graphics to goblin graphics) as well as just labeling the existing goblins as kobolds...especially since the goblin graphics have always looked more like kobolds to me.

I'm not expecting anyone to drop what their doing and work on them. I just think it's a good concept to work on eventually.

 

[Tayschrenn]

How about giving the sidar a knack at espionage ? and other covert stuff ? Undead-hunters are an idea - maybe some spirit mana based rituals ?

 

[arkham4269]

I just brought up the goblin idea for two reason...well maybe three.

1. I like the idea of goblins being the dark mirror version of dwarves as orcs are the dark mirror version of man and/or elves. It fits the dualistic nature of the lore of FfH.

2. I like the Archos as a concept, especially since they are rather unique...

Plus, now that I think about it, before they came out with Driders, in my own personal D&D campaign I had a goblin/spider centaur type being so there is probably that knocking around. And that's the last I'm going to say on that here. I'm sure we can take about a goblin based Archos, ideas for the Sidar and the like in the Civ Idea thread.

 

[Jabie]

Sidar to go Oriental gets my vote.

 

[civ_king]

Sidar go Persian gets my vote...