1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Orbis New Civilizations Development

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Kraków, Poland
    With the release of version 1.0, there are now 3 civilizations developed by me, so I think they deserve own thread.

    If you have any suggestions regarding balance, flavour or simply unit art, please post it here.

    This thread is designed mostly for Mechanos, Dao & Palatinate. But if you feel you need to express your feeling about another civ (especially i.e. Scions or Tlactl), feel free to do so.
     
  2. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Kraków, Poland
    reserved #1
     
  3. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Kraków, Poland
    reserved #2
     
  4. KrugSmash

    KrugSmash Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    East Coast USA
    Sheaim!
     
  5. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Location:
    Łódź, Poland
    Speaking of them, I though about improving Planar Gates and their ability to survive high AC at the same time. Maybe aside better chance to spawn creatures, they should get better ones at AC 50+, AC75+ and finally at AC100 ? By better I mean really better - Balors, Death Knights or some new ones. Getting those units for free (and above national limits ?) would make building gates and raising AC more worthwhile.
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    That's pretty much what RifE is doing for the next version (3 new gate creatures, one of which is available as default; Gate is available earlier and cheaper; More granularity in the effect of the AC to the spawn chances, goes up every 1.5% every 10 points rather than just AC50/75/100, has the same amount at AC100). Ahwaric may be interested in some of it. ;)

    The Sheaim are rather off-topic here though; As the post says, it's for discussing those civs added by Orbis, not for FfH civs. I'd talk about them first, get them well-integrated and balanced, and then worry about the FfH ones. ;)
     
  7. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Location:
    Łódź, Poland
    A couple of first impressions about two new civs. I only reached mid-late game, so it's just a couple of thoughts.

    Palatinate:
    - after all this talking about guilds being overpowered we get civ with -75% maintenance, extra xp, :hammers:, :food:, :commerce: from guilds ;) But I like it :)

    - I love Palatinate flavor. Honestly, I expected them to be just a bunch of knights and landsknechts but they are much better. Nice mounted units (though I don't get why Lancer starts with Dwarven ?), nice late units (finally some late game UU :) ), and excellent not buildable units. Poludnica is a little bit overpowered, especially if spawned early and Vodnik can also be very dangerous if used properly. Maybe their abilities should work only in cultural borders ? Fits flavorwise and might balance them a little bit. On the other hand, you're usually attacking, not defending so it might severely limit their usefulness. But if AI is using their abilities (didn't play against them yet) invading Palatinate lands might be worse then invading elven lands ;>
    BTW, Vodnik's Drown link leads to former OO unit.

    - They might use a little thing or two in early game. Before guilds and late game units (I count Vodnik as late game unit as Machinery is not very important tech) they seem a little bit boring. Maybe very early pagan spellcaster (at mysticism ?) or unique monument (Zbruch Idol ?) ?

    Dao:

    - maybe I'm just lucky, but they spawn a lot of elementals. Maybe some kind of counter (like grigori one) would be better then random chance ?

    - mentioned before, but they need good leader to use Sohei. Also, they might use an evil leader (I know I already said it ;>). The whole Yin-Yang, Open Hand-Closed Fist and so on... I'm not an expert on Chinese tradition, but it seems dualism is important there :)

    - Elemental Unity is extremely useful. I don't know if it works like it was supposed to work, but healing completely is very powerful. It ends your move, right but often after fight you either don't have any points left or don't want to move anyway. Maybe nerf it a little bit or add chance that elemental returns to it's native plane ?

    - they can use same mid to late game building. Right now, you run out of UBs at Writing :) Maybe Monastery replacement, with less :science: bonus but giving free Combat I or some unique Martial Art promo ? Pavillon so Creative leader gets some chance for Cultural victory despite being Agnostic ? Some kind of Confucian-like academy ? Don't really know :)

    - I like arcane/druid line :) It seems that they are supposed to use spellcasters and elementals instead of normal units, but it works well, though I still have to play them in late game. Fortunately, 1.00 seems very stable (though not very fast ;>) so I will have chance soon :)
     
  8. Abremms

    Abremms Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    436
    I haven't had a chance to play Dao or Palatinate, but I've played several games as Mechanos and they are quite fun to play. i was worried that with lacking the religion or magic system of other civs that they might lack depth but thats not the case at all. its just different.

    they do seem to be rather op in the late game once refined mana start stacking up. maybe that can be toned down a bit. i feel like as soon as i build Goliath and some tanks i might as well call it a night, cuz the game is over.

    I did have an idea for another race that i think could be interesting, the Aelirans are an offshoot of the Mechanos. they don't share the Mechano's hatred of gods and magic, instead they seek to combine religion, magic and technology. they would have access to the 19 spheres of mana and the traditional religions with emphasis on wind mana, and more emphasis on airships as ranged artillery and transport, they would be weak attackers and vulnerable to attack without ground support for balance.

    they are a nomadic people who go where the wind takes them and when the need arose, they can convert entire cities into massive airships and move them somewhere else. while airborne, a city could not produce anything, including food, so you would risk losing population on a long move and when you landed you'd have to put your workers to building new infrastructure. it would take awhile to recover from a migration, but it could be done and it could be worth it to escape an overpowering enemy, or seek richer lands.

    honestly, i'm not even sure if all of that is possible in FfH, I'm still just learning how to make simple mods and im a long ways from being able to do anything with this idea myself. RifE's Mechanos has mobile fortresses that can pack up and move, should be able to do the same with cities.
     
  9. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    It's possible to do; Just would require DLL work to do well. The Mobile Fortress in RifE is just an improvement, don't have to store so many variables (Buildings, Population, Culture, City Name, etc).
     
  10. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Germany
    I also think the Sheaim could use some love as their planar gate mechanic is interesting, but it does not enough. I think it would be cool if a high level Planar Gate spawn could upgrade into a Demon Lord like there are in D&D. These demon lords get some special abilities and improve their own kind.
    For example the Queen of Succubi could get Mind III/ and all Succubi gain 10% chance to gain control of defeated enemies (or just Strong).
    The Lord of Tar Demons lets all Tar Demons start with Strong (which lets them split more often when defeated).
    Another possibility would be that experienced Planar Gate spawns are allowed to summon another creature of their kind (like demons and devils in D&D).
    At Level 5 the Planar gate spawn gains a promotion that lets him summon another creature of his kind. This creature is independent of the summoner (unlike a skeleton), but the promotion is removed after casting the spell. At level 10, level 15 etc. the creature gains that promo again.
     
  11. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,217
    Location:
    Kraków, Poland
    Well, yes and no. I started this thread for new civs, be them mine or just added from other mods. But if anyone feels that othger civ needs the most attention, it is ok to post it here.
    And yes, Sheaim really need work.
    I just did small changes to guilds, and much bigger to civics. Before doing any further changes, I decided to let you play a bit. I really want Palatinate to have guild synergy, but do not want to overpower them
    Great you like them. When I first mentioned them to Opera, she said that they may and as just another version of Bannor. Glad they are different. Also, I wanted to do something different instead using ideas from the same mythologies over and over. And unique spawning mechanics. I really like watermill thing for Vodnik :)
    Dvarwen lancer is a bug. You may guess which unit entry I copied when creating the unit... Will fix that in patch b.
    So the spawning rates are ok? I had no luck getting any Poludnica in my game, so increased the odds a bit.
    Poludnica is strong... Maybe I should make her weaker in certain circumastnces, i.e at attacking cities. I am not sure if noon dance is so powerfull, but true, it might be your first offensive spell. Maybe it should be only usable at farm? And work as fireball does, on just one stack?
    I might make drown work only in borders, but it is still quite limited. Wetland & freshwater is not that common. But still, I can’t make AI avoid these tiles if fighting palatinate.

    They made a defensive pact with the old spirits of their land, so it might fit the flavour.
    Well, it can create one, so it is not entirelly wrong. But will take alook. There is a problem with spell links in general.
    Nice ideas. Also, I thought of disabling some things for them. I think they do not fit agnostics (though they have unique faith), but maybe disable arcane line, and instead add unique pagan spellcasters?
    But I fear to make them too much like Dao, their hero is already like one. I might add another one, more military inclined.

    I think I might just lower the chances. I wanted to add a counter similiar to great people one, but it was more trouble than it is worth. Now, I do it with a dozen of lines in python
    - mentioned before, but they need good leader to use Sohei. Also, they might use an evil leader (I know I already said it ;>). The whole Yin-Yang, Open Hand-Closed Fist and so on... I'm not an expert on Chinese tradition, but it seems dualism is important there :)
    I do not think I should make them evil or good. Yin & Yang are not really this kind of dualism. I think the simplest way will be allowing Sohei for neutral leaders – plus it still fits the flavour.
    I think lowering heal effect to say, double heal spell amount would be best. I do not think anyone would like their high level units going back to native plane just because they wanted to heal them... ;)
    - they can use same mid to late game building. Right now, you run out of UBs at Writing :) Maybe Monastery replacement, with less :science: bonus but giving free Combat I or some unique Martial Art promo ? Pavillon so Creative leader gets some chance for Cultural victory despite being Agnostic ? Some kind of Confucian-like academy ? Don't really know :)
    All good ideas :) Not sure I will include all of them, but a new unique monastery will come soon.
    They get many bonuses for the price of not being able to use arcane or disciple units. But still not sure if they do not get too much...
    1.00 should be a bit faster, as many things were moved from python to dll. But not considerably faster. Plus, stable is good for me :)
    I am glad you like them. Refined mana mechanics is both overpowered and hard to fix. I will keep the mana, but it will enhance units different way. Just need to think how...
    I my book, that is the flavour of Luirchup. We can expand them this way – golems are just one toy, they can use more. But not sure about mobile cities... In fact, while I like the idea, the code difficulty, and AI problems may make it not worth the effort.
     
  12. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Germany
    That's what I think would be best. It is quite easy to do and mainly works with XML (except for the Spell. But that one is similar to the Mirror-spell so shouldn't be that hard either.):

    Promotions:
    Outsider
    Every Planar Gate creature gets this promotion for free. It does nothing as it is only a requirement for the Hellspawn-promotion

    Hellspawn
    Promotionrequirement: Outsider
    Levelrequirement: Level 6
    Available to all unitcombattypes
    Allows the Hellspawn-Spell

    Spells:
    Hellspawn:
    Promotionrequirement: Hellspawn
    Effect: Creates a permanent creature that is a copy of the caster, but without any promotions or XP. Removes the Hellspawn-promotion (but similar to Mind III it can be taken again after promoting the unit at the next level).
     
  13. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Location:
    Łódź, Poland
    It's not really about how powerful it is, but rather how early you get this. For fireball you need Sorcery, Poludnica is avoidable much, much earlier.

    Right. It's more about flavor here than gameplay. I just can't see spirits of the land invading other country ;)


    Right, seems a little too much like Dao. But early spellcaster and/or druid replacement should be ok. Early spellcaster could be upgradeable to druid replacement also.
    How about forcing them to choose ? Either they follow their old, pagan faith or one of common ones ? Make their pagan temple more powerful than other pagan ones but they disappear (possible via python ?) when you adopt state religion. And with state religion (and your temples gone), you can't build your pagan spellcaster anymore and spawn rates of Poludnica and Vodnik are lowered. I believe it creates some interesting choices and fits their flavor (and our history ;>).


    Well, I might just be lucky. I only played a couple of games :)


    I see. So I wrote new last paragraph for Sanari entry, I hope you like this one better :)
    Spoiler :
    “No, I don’t Master Yinxi…” – Sanari admitted shaking her head. She had head full of reasons why he should let her stay. He was even more attuned to the world than she was, he must have felt that something is different now, must have sensed the change. He must have heard this strange whisper from the West, but it was up to him to decide. Finally, he spoke breaking the silence again - “In other circumstances, I would never agree. But in times like these I can’t turn away anyone who wants to help.” – he turned around to walk off, but stopped after a few steps – “Welcome back, Sanari. I missed you.”


    Gameplay wise, maybe she should have bonus against demons, instead of animals. And start with adventurer promo ;)

    EDIT: @Imuratep I like it, makes whole Planar Gate mechanic less luck-dependant :) And forces you to choose between making unit better and cloning it. Interesting choices are always lot of fun. Also, it is simple enough so AI should understand it. If not, their demon units can be cloned every three levels instead ;)
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    The issue with Imuratep's proposal is that planar gate units are limited. Below AC 50, you can have 1 per building which spawns them (Have 4 cities, but only 3 with a Bath? Only getting 3 Succubi). AC50, it goes to 2 per building; 3 at AC75, 4 at AC100.

    Spawning them like that, while flavorful, keeps you from getting more back in the cities; If you're okay with that it works, but have to keep it in mind.
     
  15. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Germany
    Still better than the current solution. How are you supposed to swarm the world with demons when you get just about a few per city with planar gate. If these creatures can reproduce themselves it'll be a lot of more.
    You could of course just increase the number of creatures spawned depending on other buildings with a demonic flavor (like their pagan temple, mage guild, obsidian gate etc.). But you still have no real control over your army (if you don't want to cripple yourself by not using the buildings). Mostly you get useless Tar Demons or Chaos Marauders.
    What would happen if you double the number of creatures spawned depending on AC. Would it be broken? I can't imagine it as the Planar Gate creatures are so few right now.
     
  16. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    762
    Location:
    CheeseLand, Lyon
    The Dao spawning is a bit too much ATM,but only in the early game (cause late game, str 5/6 units are only usefull to swarm ennemies) , so what about making them have poor produceable units untill tier 2 ?

    ie : warrior, axeman, archer..etc could be 'ashigaru' versions with 'weak' promotion built in.
     
  17. azzedar

    azzedar Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    289
    Location:
    A planet called 'nonsense', germany
    played a complete dao game now.
    1.) woah. exactly what ffh needs, flavourwise. they unique mechanic of arcane units beeing disciple units is nice.+interesting world spell.
    2.)i totally agree about their elemental spawn. much too big at early game and too weak at late game.
    several suggestions:
    a.)limit their max spawn. something about 3/per city/pagan temple or 1 of each type (fire/earth/water/air) per city/pagan temple. atm playing dao is just like researching mysticism first, then completly focussing on economy for the rest of the game while your elementals totally :):):):) up your neighbors (considering the pagan temple replacement is the first thing you build in all of your cities + a specific enhancement thing of your choice... i liked air elementals).
    i didnt need to build any military unit besides some very few mages later on to support against longbowman (swarming 4tw) - playing on a high difficulty+increasing diff - to invade my neighbors. limiting spawn number is essential unless (see "c.) d.)" idea)....

    b.)new spawns at elementalism/sorcery. we have elementals (who are actually weak versions of the base ffh game elementals) and elder elementals. what about renaming the first ones to "young" and get some medium ones at the mentioned techs. im not sure if allowing the elder elementals to spawn as well is a good idea. but maybe it balances out at the latest arcane techs. with a small spawn %.

    c.)instead of sending your elemental puppets to war for you while you're taking a lazy sunbath - get a synergy for your combat units. my suggestions: sacrificing elementals for promos. like sacrifing earth elementals to give all melee units in the stack stoneskin or something like that (tell me when u like that idea and ill think of other promos :D). this would also give a purpose to the weak elementals spawning in the end game.

    d.)merging elementals! give three and get one but with a laser gun! ... i mean: a spell-like ability that merges two/three/four weak elementals (of the same kind?) into one stronger - this shouldnt be allowed until a specific tech.

    questions:
    a.) ninjas. theyre unique units but i cant find any difference to the normal unit? is this intended? suggestions for a unique ability: turning invisible for a few rounds and giving a slight withdraw bonus (like bam, "smoke powder!") like the sidar ghosts just for a few rounds.

    gonna play my palatine game to and end next. but for now just a notice: im not sure if like the way their special units spawn. what about a ritual that allows those spawning things for enemy units on enemy farms/watermills? (to clarify: i mean: killing an ENEMY units on an enemy farm gives a small chance to spawn one of those undead fairies too) like a final compact signed between the old pagan/nature ghosts and the people of the cities following that one goal: killing those nonbelievers in the neighbor country :D (thats some irony...). and doing some bloodshed powers your ancient spirits. this could also be combined with an evil way for the whole race?
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    One idea I just had: The Sheaim are supposed to be all about Armageddon, and bringing Hell to Erebus. Why not emphasize this? Have each city's spawn odds (And spawn cap?) be modified by the amount of hell terrain in it's vicinity. Gives you a concrete reason to summon the infernals and welcome Hell, without making it too strong in the early game.
     
  19. Mikka

    Mikka Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    38
    There's just one little thing about the Dao that comes to mind: although they seem more Japanese based then Chinese (which I think is fine- opens up room for a Chinese (or Indian, or Korean, or such and so) inspired one at a later date... actually, a Chinese inspired civilization could be awesome, gah, ideas) so it's not as such a big deal, they do seem to be missing an element.

    Traditionally, the five elements in Japanese philosophy has the center as kū (void, but more of the Buddhist Void then a traditional fantasy oblivion/doooooom!! void, the most important element (and the balance to the others). Where am I going with this? Azzedar suggested the idea of merging elementals: perhaps a sacrifice (or unification might be a better word, as it's a positive thing) of a fire, water, earth, and air elemental could grant a void/heaven elemental (...the psion/shadowy things that have a tendency to appear on mind and shadow nodes if you have Wild Mana/Feral Guardians included would make a fine enough model for it). I would suggest such a unit is not an Awesome Powered thing, but rather makes other units greater (perhaps particularly other elementals). I'm not sure what the best way to do that would be... perhaps an attach like a Great Commander, or perhaps a buff... eh, again, just an imaginer, not a coder.

    Another thought steps back towards the monk units (and this idea could be shared with the Elohim, as well- another of my favorite civs who I think can always use a bit more love (although I know they get quite a bit): how about different schools? Different points on the technology tree could allow a building (or just one building, with tech's just adding promotions) that would allow a monk to devout oneself to a school of philosophy/combat.

    ...That's also of course very usable for swordsmen as well, come to think of it. It's just various Orders of monks are an old and fine tradition in eastern fantasy so it stuck to me first.

    I'm really enjoying the Dao. They've become one of my favorite civs: only thing I miss is religion, but I just like religion and I think them as humanists work fantastically well.
     
  20. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    762
    Location:
    CheeseLand, Lyon
    Following on Mikka's post : Could it be possible to give Dao UBs that would replace normal national wonders buildable by GCs ? That way they could have monastic/martial arts traditions without overpowering them overall.
     

Share This Page