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Orc Champions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Fafnir13, May 28, 2009.

  1. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Did you know that the Clan of Embers is the only civ that is unable to get orc champions? As any other civ, captured barbarian warriors and axemen can be upgraded into champions. They look just like the players regular champions, but they do retain the orc promotion. To add to the fun, Clan warriors and axemen get to upgrade into goblin ridden chariots. Oh, and these chariots are pulled by wolves but require horses. Okay, those are all really cosmetic issues, but a little polish never hurts.
    For starters, reinstate the graphics for orc champions. This would take care of one graphical hiccup. The art is currently in use by Rantine, but I'm of the mind that he could use something a bit more heroic anyways. I've devoted at one thread to that issue before. Perhaps is should be revisited.
    As for the chariots, the Clan chariot appears to be a separate unit and not just a unique graphic placed over the normal one. The civilopedia even says that it replaces chariots. If that's the case, it's upgrade tree could probably be edited to not include axemen. This would certainly put players that rely on the axeman to chariot switch, but I like how it plays into Clan's caste system.
    To give players something to do with their axemen, why not let them upgrade into champions? Champions would still not be a buildable unit (who would want them when you've got ogres?) but it does give the Clan player something to do with all those survivors.
    To further mess with orc champions, give them a level requirement. This would work well flavor-wise and orc champions would literally be champions. Only battle tested orcs would be able to rise to this rank, the few survivors of the hordes produced by the warrens.
    Given that the Clan player is left with little choices but to go heavy on down the iron line, I feel a little extra polish on that end of things would be in order. Ogres marching alongside leftover axemen and exalted champions makes for a nice bit of horde flavor. At the very least, polishing up the graphical hiccups would be nice.
    Thanks for any and all replies. :)
     
  2. Lgaard

    Lgaard King

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    Orcs' champions are 'nice to have', but I can easily see arguments why The Clan does not have champions, lorewise:
    Orc lifespan is short, learning curve is flat, orcs do not pay much attention to the value of life (orcish hospital sound ridiculous, same for the expedition to rescue orcish 'lady in distress', etc.), warriors are highly exploited, and die more often than in other cultures. Incidentally the extremally strong warriors may get much superiority to others, but they automatically become heroes (Rantine, Orthus). As for all others: why should they invest in training champions, if they could have them replaced by much stronger ogres?
    Horde flavour to me is a bunch of ogres wading in the sea of orcs and goblins. "Quantity has a quality all its own" [J.S. - famous orkish leader].
     
  3. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    We're not reds ! All we are doing is amass a little capital, so that we can retire and have women (2 to 10) and children (56 on average). Plus our society isn't based on any kind of ridiculously hypocritic 'equality' system. We live life of truth, we bath in the ONE TRUE FIRE, GLORY TO THE EVERBURNING !!!
     
  4. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I think orcs really do need a champion model, but I don't think Rantine's model will cut it.

    Maybe I can get around to it sometime. Might be fun
     
  5. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    Why not put back an orcish champion ? Because the spot is taken by the ogres. Hum, but its not really fluffy, all those orcs disapearing, hu ?

    What i propose is a sort of leader unit, quite weak (because representing a single command unit plus basic escort) but able to boost (no definitive idea on that part) the melee units in its tile, for a turn, then giving them 'tired' promotion for a turn or more. Best would be to only boost orcs and not ogres, but I seem to remember they have the same racial tag.

    And if we can have the AI use it, it will make for awesome barb stacks late game !

    EDIT : it could be created by sacrificing x axemen (dunno if it is possible), and the boost would be only to axemen and warriors (the only true orcs I think)
     
  6. Brokenbone

    Brokenbone Prince

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    I recently played my first Clan game in a long time and was kind of stumped at different points on "lines" kind of abruptly terminating in ways I'd forgotten about. This included the lack of any place to go after Axemen, as well as the mounted line sort of stalling at a low tier (still, if you have 20 Wolf Riders with 90% withdraw, you can do terrible, horrible things to a neighbouring empire).

    I do imagine that Axemen having some place to "go" when everyone else is fielding Champions makes sense. I do not know though whether the idea would simply be to have Champion only possible as an upgrade, "cannot be built", or some other mechanic. Axemen "combining" like a wolf pack into some kind of hardened unit? Still, that's what the high tier national units might be for, your "best axemen" end up becoming berserkers some day. *shrugs*

    Anyhow, on the tangent of "orcish society isn't going to produce stars, unless those stars are heroes or civ leaders", maybe throw half-orcs into the mix to justify the occasional smarter, more adaptive unit, perhaps at a high hammers cost to represent "this unit is reviled even by the civ it serves."
     
  7. Skitters

    Skitters Prince

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    How about a system that upon aquiring Iron Working, each time an Orc Axeman enters combat there would be a chance that the unit would be promoted to Champion?

    Would be great if somehow the chance of promotion was based on the odds of success of the attack made - so the lower the odds the more likely the unit becomes a champion (perhaps never more than a 20% chance, but have it so that 90% odds would be a minimum required and even 80% would be a rare occurence)

    As for stats - considering warren, perhaps have the unit as strength 5, but unlike other champions perhaps the unit could keep its + 10% city attack it had as an axeman, as well as have the + 25% melee bonus?
     
  8. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    My idea was that in the orcish society, there are probably 90 % warriors in the male pop, but they surely need to change job at a certain age, just to keep the economy rolling. So the older warriors join up to determine who 'deserves' to stay a warrior for it's all life, those succeeding becoming sorts of chieftain, while the others go back to a more productive lifestyle.
     
  9. Gigaz

    Gigaz civoholic

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    The experienced axemen should be able to settle down in an orc city like great generals to grant every new unit +1 EP. But not more then 3 axemen per city are allowed.
     
  10. lordrune

    lordrune Prince

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    Let's be honest, in the case of the Clan, the ability to build melee units at double the speed of any civ is a pretty massive advantage in its own right.
    The fact that some of the lines, e.g. warrior-axeman, terminate early is I think a pretty fair balancer.
     
  11. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Well said, lordrune.
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    yes, but late game you have an orc empire... without any orcs :D
    only goblins on wolfs, goblins with bows, lizardmen, trolls shamans... and religious humans that are trying not to be killed by the greenskin

    So it's true that no evoltion for the orcish units is sad....
     
  13. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

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    Orcish Paladins? ;)
     
  14. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Why not? It was a perfectly servicable champion model back when it was the champion model. Kael mentioned not liking the old Rantine model much back when orc champions were nixed. He did, however, like the champion model, so it was plopped into place there much to my personal chagrin.
    I'll stand by my statements that Rantine needs a new model more.

    Quite so. It was a balance decision. Kael went at some length on it actually, with talk of how orc units are always expendable. It's a great philosophy except for the hiccups I've described.

    1. All Civs, except Clan, can acquire orc champions.

    2. Unlike orc warriors, they do not retain a distinctive appearance.

    3. Orc axemen can upgrade into goblin charioteers.

    Like I said, these are minor issues that really just need a bit of polish to take care of. The game is full of such things, but I'm trying to keep this particular post rather focused.

    Edit:

    Ogres and goblins are orcs. I was bugged by that facet of it as well until I got that clarified.
     
  15. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Im pretty sure that orcs (ie warriors and champions) can upgrade into the tier 4 melee.

    Therefore, I don't see any reason to dissallow an orc champion for those level 6 axemen ...
     
  16. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I find it too skinny and underwhelming. I think it would be a great model for an Orcish hunter, but it's not good for either rantine or a champion.
     
  17. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Never really thought of it as skinny, but I can see where you're coming from with the hunter aspect. Just out of my own curiosity, what would your vision of the orc champion be?
     
  18. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I have to retract my previous statement, actually.

    I play FF most of the time. And while I'm fixing up the artdefines, I've discovered that we've actually been using an older model for rantine, which was a skinny hippus-eque orc. So my earlier comments were invalid, as we were looking at different rantines. I've now fixed it, and the new one is more or less what I'd expect from an orc champion. Aside from the skin not being green.
     
  19. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I know this thread is kind of old, but I never mentioned it over here.

    A while back, I made new Orcish Champion art, as I said I would. This is what we're currently using for Orc Champions in FF, heavily modified from the existing one.

     
  20. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    Awesome model Kirby, looks very orcish and scary.
     

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