Order Ideology: Nationalization & Iron Curtain

[grmagne]

I rarely play Order, but now that I have a corporation with this ideology, I was wondering about these Level 2 & 3 tenets:

Nationalization: Corporate Offices (up to your Global Franchise limit) function as Franchises. Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your Corporation.

Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse upon city capture. +250% food or production from internal trade routes. City connections generate +5 Gold and Production.


Honestly, both tenets seem weak at first glance, and I wouldn't normally consider them. But since these tenets have gone through lots of feedback analysis over the years I suppose there must be a strong niche. Are these only intended to be used by civs like the Ottomans, or can any civ use these two tenets together effectively?

EDIT: Fixed some seriously ugly icons. Never copy and paste icons from the Wiki

 

[Legen]

Nationalization is strong in a wide empire, especially one that has few friends, as it is much quicker to build 10 offices in your empires than wait for 10 international trade routes to end. Offices are very powerful anyway once you do get a lot of franchises, so this tenet is solid on its own.

I think Order's Nationalization should be switched with Autocracy's Syndicalism, though, for thematic reasons. Syndicalism even has its civilopedia talking about the realizing a Socialist nation, I can't understand how it got to be an Autocracy's tenet. At least, with this name.

I can't really say about Iron Curtain, since I tend to prioritize a different level 3 tenet when going Order. I should try combining these two tenets next time.

 

[Moi Magnus]

There is definitly a lot of games where I would like to have Nationnalisation. Unfortunatelly, I never take Order in those games. (Don't know exacly why, maybe just a coincidence) and moreover, Tier 2 tenet makes it a late tenet if your not Poland, so I would already most likely find a way to deal with may absence of trading partner problem by the time I reach it.

 

[Gazebo]

Nationalization is strong in a wide empire, especially one that has few friends, as it is much quicker to build 10 offices in your empires than wait for 10 international trade routes to end. Offices are very powerful anyway once you do get a lot of franchises, so this tenet is solid on its own.

I think Order's Nationalization should be switched with Autocracy's Syndicalism, though, for thematic reasons. Syndicalism even has its civilopedia talking about the realizing a Socialist nation, I can't understand how it got to be an Autocracy's tenet. At least, with this name.

I can't really say about Iron Curtain, since I tend to prioritize a different level 3 tenet when going Order. I should try combining these two tenets next time.

Corporate syndicalism was an important economic aspect of fascism.

G

 

[Stalker0]

Iron curtain is amazing. You can give your capital like +150 hammers with just a few trade routes. Build wonders like it’s going out of style.

 

[Legen]

Corporate syndicalism was an important economic aspect of fascism.

G

I'm unfamiliar about it, but I suppose so, looking for it right now. But then, I wished the civilopedia reflected that. Reading it talk about Socialism just gives this mismatch feeling, with no indications of how it relates to Fascism.

 

[Logoncal]

Fascism is like a Communism faraway cousin, with some trickles of capitalism in it.
Which is why you tend to see corporatism on fascist states, while in communist states there's no corporations other than... you know, the State

 

[Gazebo]

I'm unfamiliar about it, but I suppose so, looking for it right now. But then, I wished the civilopedia reflected that. Reading it talk about Socialism just gives this mismatch feeling, with no indications of how it relates to Fascism.

Don't be spooked by the word socialism. Socialism existed on both sides of the ideological spectrum - you could have socialism that focused on equality via class (i.e. proletarian socialism) or socialism that focused on equality via race (i.e. national socialism, or nazism).

Edit: this distinction is typically what trips people up when you see kooky arguments like 'the nazis were leftists!' etc. etc. - they see that word socialism and off they go. Nothing could be further from the truth.

G

 

[tu_79]

you could have socialism that focused on equality via class (i.e. proletarian socialism) or socialism that focused on equality via race

This is a way to put it. Initially fascism comes from an exhaltation of the homeland, comprised of people of the same nation. From here to racial supremacism there are very few steps.
But I always wondered where the socialist ideology was in the nationalsocialist party. I thought it was protection from the State, but only for national people.

 

[Txurce]

Part of the problem Legen has is that the Wikipedia entry for Syndicalism calls it "national syndicalism" throughout, whereas its benefits to Corporate Franchises more closely resembles the "corporate syndicalism" employed to varying degrees by fascist nations like Germany and Italy. The overall entry loses control of the relevant terminology, resulting in confusion.

Syndicalism, which has a direct connection to Socialism and its principles of class equality, was originally built around trade unions. These unions were immediately banned by Hitler upon taking power. There was no political or economic equality under the Nazis, and their racial theories were more about superiority than equality. I would change the name of the tenet to "Corporate Syndicalism," which more closely resembles the Nazi command economy, and switch out the historical info to something more relevant.

This is a way to put it. Initially fascism comes from an exhaltation of the homeland, comprised of people of the same nation. From here to racial supremacism there are very few steps.
But I always wondered where the socialist ideology was in the nationalsocialist party. I thought it was protection from the State, but only for national people.

The "socialist" aspects of National Socialism came from its original intent to nationalize some industries. For all practical purposes, this never happened. I think if Hitler hadn't made his start by taking over the National Socialist German Workers Party, he never would have used the term "socialism" at all in defining his beliefs.

 

[Gazebo]

Part of the problem Legen has is that the Wikipedia entry for Syndicalism calls it "national syndicalism" throughout, whereas its benefits to Corporate Franchises more closely resembles the "corporate syndicalism" employed to varying degrees by fascist nations like Germany and Italy. The overall entry loses control of the relevant terminology, resulting in confusion.

Syndicalism, which has a direct connection to Socialism and its principles of class equality, was originally built around trade unions. These unions were immediately banned by Hitler upon taking power. There was no political or economic equality under the Nazis, and their racial theories were more about superiority than equality. I would change the name of the tenet to "Corporate Syndicalism," which more closely resembles the Nazi command economy, and switch out the historical info to something more relevant.



The "socialist" aspects of National Socialism came from its original intent to nationalize some industries. For all practical purposes, this never happened. I think if Hitler hadn't made his start by taking over the National Socialist German Workers Party, he never would have used the term "socialism" at all in defining his beliefs.

Solid write-up. A+ and 1 gold star!

G

 

[ElliotS]

I rarely play Order, but now that I have a corporation with this ideology, I was wondering about these Level 2 & 3 tenets:

Nationalization: Corporate Offices (up to your Global Franchise limit) function as Franchises. Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your Corporation.

Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse upon city capture. +250% food or production from internal trade routes. City connections generate +5 Gold and Production.


Honestly, both tenets seem weak at first glance, and I wouldn't normally consider them. But since these tenets have gone through lots of feedback analysis over the years I suppose there must be a strong niche. Are these only intended to be used by civs like the Ottomans, or can any civ use these two tenets together effectively?

EDIT: Fixed some seriously ugly icons. Never copy and paste icons from the Wiki

The Nazi stuff aside they're both strong. Nationalization can explode your yields. It's really strong. Iron Curtain is also powerful. Not only does it massively speed up acquiring cities late game, but it gives tons of gold and the ability to flood production wherever you need it. I mean any time you see a modifier of +250% you should stop and go "That's a lot of percent..."

 

[neo_arcadia]

Those two tenets, along with free stuff in every city (like military academy, free population, free tech) for me, is the main reason I love Order. The benefits suits my playstyle nicely at early period of ideology adoption and many era after. With Nationalization you will be uncontested (except by civ with like, double your gamescore) in one aspect of global national yields (be it science, culture, golden age points, etc). Its effect is very visible the bigger the map you play and so, more city you have. Because I play on huge map 10 players (limited by PC performance issues) Order is my favorite ideology. I prefer internal trade route than international in the late game. You are going to complete wonder quickly, along with being number one in international project. As a side note, demographics is a good indicator how well you manage your empire and my goal is to be consistently a leader in one aspect mentioned in it.

 

[Noob Fanboy]

Those two tenets, along with free stuff in every city (like military academy, free population, free tech) for me, is the main reason I love Order. The benefits suits my playstyle nicely at early period of ideology adoption and many era after. With Nationalization you will be uncontested (except by civ with like, double your gamescore) in one aspect of global national yields (be it science, culture, golden age points, etc). Its effect is very visible the bigger the map you play and so, more city you have. Because I play on huge map 10 players (limited by PC performance issues) Order is my favorite ideology. I prefer internal trade route than international in the late game. You are going to complete wonder quickly, along with being number one in international project. As a side note, demographics is a good indicator how well you manage your empire and my goal is to be consistently a leader in one aspect mentioned in it.

Order is my favorite ideology, in-game and in real life. But i don't like the name at all, i think equality will be a lot more appealing.

 

[tu_79]

Order is my favorite ideology, in-game and in real life. But i don't like the name at all, i think equality will be a lot more appealing.

We've been through this. Had we called it Socialism people would complain about how awful it was in real life. With generic names it is only loosely related and it is argument safe.

 

[CppMaster]

Order is my favorite ideology, in-game and in real life. But i don't like the name at all, i think equality will be a lot more appealing.

Are you a communist? I like Autocracy the most in the game, but i'm surely not a fascist IRL.

 

[tu_79]

Are you a communist? I like Autocracy the most in the game, but i'm surely not a fascist IRL.

You sure?

 

[Noob Fanboy]

We've been through this. Had we called it Socialism people would complain about how awful it was in real life. With generic names it is only loosely related and it is argument safe.

Equality is generic, and a lot more appealing, socialism doesn't have to be URSS style. Chile and Yugoslavia socialism were democratic.

Are you a communist? I like Autocracy the most in the game, but i'm surely not a fascist IRL.

Communism is not fascism.

And it's a shame we can't add new ideologies, creating a ideology like anarchy can be fun.

 

[CppMaster]

Communism is not fascism.

I know, I meant that Autocracy is fascism, isn't it?

 

[Noob Fanboy]

I know, I meant that Autocracy is fascism, isn't it?

Of course lol