Orders make possible so many far movements and surprise attacks?

[bitula]

Hi All,
Game looks interesting, but I don't understand: is it really so, that you can move from quite far away with multiple units and then attack if you have many orders? So you can do surprise attack eliminating select opponent units, without them having any meaningful tactical chance, since you eg.: don't even see the opponent? For example, if I have a highly promoted unit, someone can just rush an attack from distance and kill it unless you surround it with other units? That doesn't sound good, but maybe I just misunderstand something. Please enlighten me!

 

[Poldworld]

Your observation is a regular topic.

Some key points for it:
- General: Game is quite different compared to e.g. CIV.
- You are expected to have a rather large army in mid to late game -- 50units is not unusual.
- Scouts give a lot of vision, which should prevent major surprise attacks.
- Alphastrikes can be strong, but you have to be careful not to overextend.
- If you are destroyed in 1 surprise go, you have much to small of an army.

 

[bitula]

Thanks for the info! This could be fine from a strategic point of view were there no promotions. But what's with highly promoted units (and scouts)? Is it similar to Civ games, where it takes lots of effort and time to highly promote a unit, or promotions here are of a less significance? Or maybe the promos can inherit to another unit after being killed? It just doesn't feel fair (tactical) to lose so much investment in promotions due to a surprise attacks, otherwise everything else you write sounds logical.

 

[Stringer1313]

Your concern is entirely reasonable and it was a concern of mine too when I started playing this game... and yet I've grown used to it and come to enjoy it. But the first responder is correct. Your army is too small -- if you are a long time Civ player like me, it takes a while to adjust.

I think promoting units is somewhat easier in Old World because the military units can passively gain experience in multiple ways just by sitting there. First, if they are parked on a corresponding training building. When you select a melee unit, you might notice that your Barracks are highlighted in green - if you park that unit on that space, they will gain 10 exp each turn. Second, if you assign it a general with Discipline (?), it will also passively gain experience each turn. Third, if your leader is a Commander, ALL your units passively gain experience each turn. But yes, it's a huge shame when you lose a fully promoted unit - keep your lesser promoted units on the front lines!

 

[Heathcliff]

Compared to civ, units move further but do less damage in Old World.
In Old World every movement point cost, and you have a limited amout of movement per turn.
So moving many units and focus attacks on one unit is possible to kill that unit.
But your opponent can do the same thing back to you and it is also costly to move units.

But the ability of the hero unit is the strongest in the game, which allow units to attack twice of move further is very costly but very powerful.
So it makes alot of sense to put your units where they get defensive bonuses.

 

[PiR]

It just doesn't feel fair (tactical) to lose so much investment in promotions due to a surprise attacks, otherwise everything else you write sounds logical.

Someone will likely die in the surprise attack but the chances that it will be your best unit are not so high. Moreover assigning a general can be more powerful than promoting. And killing the highly promoted unit will require more effort. If it's more resistant in trees, leave it in trees.

Also you can put that unit just into a city. The city will protect the unit a lot.

 

[Dale]

It's easier to setup chokepoints and defence zones in OW too, compared to Civ. It's not that difficult to choke a mountain pass with a well placed fort and upgraded longbow.

Plus, it hasn't been said so far, but even though you can spend multiple orders per turn on a unit, once a unit reaches it's fatigue limit (usually 3 for military units) it spends double orders every move. Also, hills and trees really dampen how far a unit can move per order.

When you say "OMG you can move a unit across the map so far", the reality is that one unit isn't going to do much. You'd need 4-5 good units to kill a defender. To move those 4-5 units a good way, you're talking at least 35 orders. And then, if it's ONLY those 4-5 units you're moving, they're dead next turn anyways when the enemy moves their 50 units onto them.

So yes, the long move is situational, but you still need an en masse normal movement of units without inflicting forced march too much. Which really stops the whole "You moved an army halfway across the map" issue.

 

[Dale]

Oh and for god's sake........

Use bloody scouts!

Avoid the surprise from the start, and know where your enemy is.

 

[footslogger]

Use bloody scouts!

Do you mean positioned on the map in advanced positions or more to set up agent networks? I confess I rarely have more than 2 or 3 agents in my games. Mistake?

 

[Dale]

For both reasons really. Setting up agent networks, but also well placed scouts can keep all approaches visible.

 

[bitula]

Compared to civ, units move further but do less damage in Old World.

You'd need 4-5 good units to kill a defender.

Thx all for the info. Especially the above 2 sound reassuring for promoted frontline melee units. I guess there is also ZOC, so I guess promoted weaker units can be "shielded". Sounds good. Unrelated, but I don't want to start a new thread for this: do concrete buildings, infrastructure (or whatever its called here) have a 3D representation on the map or elsewhere like in civ 6, or just a bunch of icons, like in humankind?

 

[Heathcliff]

Thx all for the info. Especially the above 2 sound reassuring for promoted frontline melee units. I guess there is also ZOC, so I guess promoted weaker units can be "shielded". Sounds good. Unrelated, but I don't want to start a new thread for this: do concrete buildings, infrastructure (or whatever its called here) have a 3D representation on the map or elsewhere like in civ 6, or just a bunch of icons, like in humankind?

Most buildings are built by a worker like in civ 6 and take up a tile with a 3D model.

 

[Dale]

Thx all for the info. Especially the above 2 sound reassuring for promoted frontline melee units. I guess there is also ZOC, so I guess promoted weaker units can be "shielded". Sounds good. Unrelated, but I don't want to start a new thread for this: do concrete buildings, infrastructure (or whatever its called here) have a 3D representation on the map or elsewhere like in civ 6, or just a bunch of icons, like in humankind?

I think I know what you mean. Not "districts" or "tile improvements" but the infrastructure buildings made for the city centre? If that's what you mean, then Old World has "Projects", which sort of covers the same thing. Some of Old World's projects like wall, towers, moat are represent on the map with models, but some like festival are not.

Old World's projects are city wide boosts, so it's hard to represent. For instance, the festival improves discontent, but can't really show that on the map physically. An inquiry results in a boost of science production, but can't be shown on the map.

 

[bitula]

I think I know what you mean. Not "districts" or "tile improvements" but the infrastructure buildings made for the city centre? If that's what you mean, then Old World has "Projects", which sort of covers the same thing. Some of Old World's projects like wall, towers, moat are represent on the map with models, but some like festival are not.

Old World's projects are city wide boosts, so it's hard to represent. For instance, the festival improves discontent, but can't really show that on the map physically. An inquiry results in a boost of science production, but can't be shown on the map.

Thanks for the info! Sounds good! I mean all three. I just like to see some graphical representation of concrete things I am building (where it is reasonable), like in civ games and unlike in humankind, endless legends or EU4 where most of these are just a bunch of lazy icons.