ORG Trait, delaying or rushing CoL?

[krikav]

As the title says, when you are playing as a ORG leader, how do you typically act, and how do you reason?

Do you usually rush for CoL to take advantage of half-price courthouses?

Do you postpone CoL, since you are allready enjoying cheaper maintenence, and are not in need for courthouses at all?




I notice that in my games, it's usually the latter.
Economy is often quite easy to manage when playing ORG, so I don't really see the need for courthouses.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Org doesn't cut all maintenance, just civic. You still need courthouses. I generally get CoL not for courthouses, but Caste System.

 

[cseanny]

If playing on Emperor and below I typically do some type of 4/5 city Cat rush so my tech path usually follows something like Min>Bw>AH>Pot>Wrt>Alpha>(bulb Math)and build research while chopping all forest then heading up to construction>currency>COL.

So yea, half-price CHs that are as simple as 2 pop whip or 2 chops are YES PLEASE, especially when you're already pushing 12+ cities before you even reach the ADs.

If room to expand then I like to use GS for academy, skip construction, and just mad expo and use the 2pop/2chop all day long. It can easily save you 50+ gpt so I see no reason no too abuse cheap CHs.

 

[Mylene]

Courthouses are nice after you reached some other goals usually, like war or fast expansion.
Techs like Currency easily beat them, so nopes...i never rush for CHs, but like Zero said: Caste important for other thingies.

 

[krikav]

I agree on your remarks.

However, I don't think anyone adresses the question at hand.
Most things you mention are things that are relevant in all games with all leaders.

The ORG trait does two things, is saves you money, and it makes a building that saves you money cheaper.

It is my notion, that since you allready save some money passivly with the org-trait, you have LESS need for courthouses, and thus you are less inclined to desire CoL for the courthouses primarily.

Do you agree on this notion?





To clarify the question more, I'll add a second example.
If you start with a strong commerce resource, like gems or gold. Are you then more likely to rush for libraries to leverage on this advantage?
Or are you more likely to defer writing, since you still have enough commerce to get away without it for a while longer?

 

[Mylene]

I like building them more with Org, cos i often will not bother otherwise unless cities are miles away
It's not only gold saved, but also Espio points which can be rather valuable.
Oh your writing example, forgot..i always want writing quick, and imo it's even better if you have strong commerce tiles.
Libraries are nice to build early, cos often you will not have much else besides barracks and units, maybe granaries.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Writing is the worst possible example. If you want to win you rush writing period. I don't think you understand Org it saves you a couple GPT, like 5 or 6 max in the stage of the game that matters. It doesn't save you money enough so you don't need courthouses in your far outlying cities.

 

[Choggy]

+1 to early whip/chop of cheap courthouses. And being first to CoL also means the AI are much more likely to go down the Feudalism path instead which delays them getting Civil Service.

 

[krikav]

How annoying that I can't seem to present a interesting topic of discussion without everyone getting the wrong idea.

 

[HarvesterofSorr]

Definitely courthouses are worth rushing. With or without organized leader.
Less gold spent on maintenance means more gold for tech.
Of course as always how much priority you give to courthouses depends on other game conditions. Are you expanding rapidly through settling or war? for example.
But I say with an organized leader you should definitely build courthouses asap and get as large an empire as possible. You've got to take advantage of what you've got.

 

[ecuwins]

I follow the same rule for building Courthouses whether I'm ORG or not. That is, when a city's maintenance reaches ~8, then it gets a Courthouse unless there are more pressing matters.

 

[vranasm]

courthouses start to be useful once your city maintenance touches the 8gpt+ ... org is excellent for 2-pop whips them so it moves the point a bit lower (maybe up to 5 gpt+ maintenance)

all in all i think we talk here about 8-10 cities empire really needing courthouses.

Caste is totally different topic

 

[Habitus]

I build them a 5-8gpt if i have nothing better to build which generally is only in isolation games where I'm late getting Currency and Alphabet, so maybe 2% of games

8+gpt I generally build them during peace time, thou with Org I sometimes set them up for 2 Pop Whips into units during a war. Since warring is by far my weakest skill I actually build them in these cities alot more often.

 

[Iranon]

I tend to push my economy quite hard for more cities and more production, ORG or not. Reasoning: very little has the long-term returns of new cities, and early war can be ugly.

Recovery is mostly passive though: cities get the basics and do something beyond working food tiles and whipping, and I tend to prioritise Currency because that gives me something for no subsequent hammer investment.

The discount makes a difference, courthouses change from something to be built if there's nothing else that's useful to something desirable immediately after the basics.

 

[UnforcedError]

Courthouses aren't always worth it. Let's say a city generates -x gp maintenance every turn but can generate 2-3+ x gp / turn by building wealth. In this case you're actually better off letting it build wealth on occasion. A courthouse is only required when the city's potential income starts approaching its expenses (I think 8+ gp / turn is just about right with fairly new, undeveloped cities). The main feature of CoL are not courthouses but Caste which you will want access to eventually. Besides, it's one of the best trade bait techs in the early game, even if you don't found Confu. This is why you might want to rush CoL whether you're ORG or not. However, with ORG you might plan in courthouses sooner, as they are cheap anyway.
As Zero already explained ORG doesn't really grant you much in the early game (other than cheap lighthouses on water maps, which can be incredibly useful), so I don't really understand the original question, I guess. And if you say the libraries were just a bad example (yes, you do want an early library with a strong commerce cap), as far as I can see, the general question is: if you already have an advantage do you want to capitalize on it and turn it into an even bigger advantage? (The answer is yes, especially if civ 4 is concerned ) However, your advantage, see above, is actually not that tremendously huge at the early stages of the game.

 

[cseanny]

@ Krikav

I see what you're saying but for me I'm not sure if ORG/CHs is the best example . The Library example is much better so I'll roll with that one for now. Say you're playing Immortal/Deity and get boxed in to only 3 cities but have horses around then IMO, if you have gold it makes a great idea to skip writing and beeline up HBR/hunt/Archery and start pumping out HAs in the 1700-1600BC range, saving you probably some 8-10 turns by doing so.

My normal tech path always has me getting early Currency so if I'm ORG I will spend a few turns researching it (or trade on higher levels). What's usually going on at this point in the game anyways? For me.....I could have some anger to whip away in conquered cities so a CH and 2 pop whip is great.

Even if I'm only expanding and I'm building wealth all you have to do is que chop 2 forest and take 1 single turn to finish it thus saving you any wasted time in regrowth and wasted time in production/building wealth.

Maybe some more examples can be discussed in terms of non ORG leaders and when does it make since to get CHs or Forges, etc. Personally, unless I have the IND/ORG trait I typically WAIT until I have reached my key war tech. My reasoning follows something along the lines that it takes 3-4 pop (depending whether you have OR) which usually translates into 9-12 turns to grow that population back with +6, which if you were making 12 then it would take you roughly an additional 36-40+ turns to make back the difference you lost if you have just been building wealth.

 

[vicawoo]

The way I play standard, you need a certain beakers per turn rate to keep up or slightly ahead of the opponent. There's no huge benefit of being vastly ahead of your opponent compared to somewhat ahead, especially for trading purposes, unless you're pursuing a special strategy (oracle civil service).

So with the civic maintenance discount, I'd be more inclined to expand more while maintaining the same research rate than trying to tech more. More food/hammers compound exponentially into even more food/hammers, while commerce/beakers tend to be less than linear.

Now whether I rush/delay code of laws because of half-priced courthouses... Well the question is with which techs is it competing? Currency is very much an economic tech, so it's a purely gold/beakers comparison. Aesthetics, usually you go for before code of laws. Alphabet, if you want to tech code of laws through priesthood, is also an economic choice (trading, building research) vs code of laws (caste/courthouses).

So code of laws tends to be compete with more versatile economic techs unless you doing some specific caste system strategy, and its non-economic competitors are ones you decide to go for organized or not.

Special case is in mass expansion/early conquest, where distance maintenance becomes so high that courthouses provide great value.

 

[vicawoo]

Although you're more likely to tech it as your third classical tech rather than waiting for a stingy AI to lose a monopoly on it. Getting it a few turns earlier as organized can be more useful than saving money at 0% slider while teching metal casting.

 

[Doshin]

Do you usually rush for CoL to take advantage of half-price courthouses?

No.

Do you postpone CoL, since you are allready enjoying cheaper maintenence, and are not in need for courthouses at all?

No.

CoL provides four chief benefits: (1) Courthouses; (2) Caste System; (3) Access to Civil Service; (4) Trade Bait (much more reliable than Feudalism or Machinery). Founding Confucianism is insignificant.

For an Organized leader, 2-4 remain the same. In terms of 1, Courthouses are cheaper (= better builds) but less pressing (= worse builds).

Space or wars permitting, Organized allows you to take on more cities earlier in the game. Maintenance is still a limiting factor, only you can now REX/conquer your way to 8 cities (or whatever) instead of 6.

Once you reach 8 cities, your economy is still going to tank. So it's still desirable to have Courthouses.

If you were boxed in, you don't need to build Courthouses immediately. But you still need the technology for reasons 2-4.

 

[UnforcedError]

Founding Confucianism is insignificant.

Not quite as by getting to CoL first you'd be the monopoly holder and could control who gets the tech. If Mansa founds it the trade value of CoL will be close to zero soon enough. (True, most AIs will not trade it away early and this is why it has good trade potential even if you don't found the religion.)