1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Orion's Grand Inquisition

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by OrionVeteran, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    Not good! The combined forces mod coding looks for location of the one Training instructor. If you have more than one TI, it will mess up the unit selection process.
     
  2. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    You must be able to get the unit's actual city, otherwise the immigrant couldn't tell which city to add its population point to.

    from Immigration.py:

    Code:
    	iPlotX = pUnit.getX()
    	iPlotY = pUnit.getY()
    	pPlot = CyMap().plot(pUnit.getX(), pUnit.getY())
    	pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
    
    Kind of inefficient, doesn't the unit structure have a back-reference to the plot, directly? It wouldn't surprise me if pUnit.getX() really does pUnit-->plot-->getX.

    See, every time you move a unit into a plot you (by you, I mean the Civ4 program) have to get the plot to look at it anyway, for movement cost, alerts, attacks, etc. Since you have it, might as well store it in the unit record (it's a simple assignment statement), because odds are the game will need it again. If it does need it again and it has to look it up, that is far more expensive computationally than storing it in the first place, even counting those times it is stored but never used (those instances are just thrown away, as the cost of the bigger savings of not having to look it up a second (3rd, 4th, etc time)).

    Each function call is an OS context switch, because it has to create a new stack frame for the called function's local variables, and to save the context state of the processor. These are preserved, so they can be restored when the code of the function returns, and the previous line of code can continue processing without being corrupted by the function call.

    The difference may not be much to human eyes, but in CPU cycles/instructions processed the difference is no doubt greater than 100:1, probably 1000:1 or greater, depending on what all goes on for a python function call. Python is an interpreted scripting language, every python function call no doubt results in dozens of C++ function calls, in the program doing the interpreting.

    When the human player is moving, it's not a big deal, the computer is much faster than the person. But when the AI is moving, it's doing thousands of these in a few seconds. Multiply that by 1000, and you have loooong wait times for the player while the AI moves.

    BTW, does python do garbage collection? I presume it does, most modern interpreters (perl, java, php do). I see no sign of memory structures being freed after use, so I thought I'd ask. If it does do garbage collection, then there is a LOT of unseen overhead every time you create a variable, because behind the scenes the interpreter is doing a lot of memory (and free list) management.

    Also, since you store iPlotX and iPlotY, why are you dereferencing getX and getY again, in the call to CyMap()? Use the variables you stored, it's got to be 100 times faster. Calling the functions again means stack creation/cleanup for another function call, that is unnecessary overhead.


    Aaahhhh, yes, from the civ4 python API (http://civ4bug.sourceforge.net/PythonAPI/index.html)


    282. CyPlot plot ()
    CyPlot* ()

    So, you could just use:

    pPlot = pUnit.plot()



    Hmm, it seems that in CombinedForces.py that the function

    Code:
    def hasEnoughUnitsToCombine(iMaxUnits, iSelectedEra, pCity, iTI):
    
    already has the correct city, and is getting units only from the plot:


    Code:
    pUnitZ = pCityPlot.getUnit(iUnitLoop)
    
    If other functions are doing differently, then they should be fixed to be consistent, and avoid weird bugs.

    BTW, I'm not some HS student with pie-in-the-sky ideas, I wrote my first programs in 1977, on an IBM 360, in Fortran. I actually used punch cards back then(how far we've come!) I still have some of my old program decks. I'm not a PC programmer though, I'd rather play than code. Used to do UNIX/C/SQL programming.
     
  3. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA

    The four items (iMaxUnits, iSelectedEra, pCity, iTI) are input variables, which the python function will use. pCity is one of those variables that must be provided. My python coding could use some efficiency improvements for some functions. Much of it is very efficient and has been tested extensively.

    The historian is the main source of OGI concepts and ideas, while I have to struggle with how to accomplish it in code. We frequently discuss what is possible and what's not based upon my limited programming skills. Your ideas have been most helpful and are keeping us busy. Well, not at moment in the resort I'm staying at.

    We like the direction OGI is heading, as 3.06 is fun and challenging. It was only last fall, when we were at version 3.03. Much has changed since then.
     
  4. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    I have a theory about my crash problem. One or both of these things may be to blame:

    A) CITIES WITH MORE BUILDINGS
    When a city builds something, it appears in the tiny little model of the city, on the main map. Each one can be different, even if cities have the same buildings, they are very complex. So, they have a high polygon count (even if the polygons are small, with small graphics textures), which takes up a lot of video memory for all the dimensions/coordinates.

    With all the buildings that add buildings in all the cities, every time I capture or build a city, that city gets all these buildings. So, I'm over 150 cities now, times all these buildings. As I gain cities, I crash more frequently, because as I scroll around the map my video memory gets used up faster and faster. I suspect the stupid game is doing a lot of duplication in video memory, exacerbating the problem.

    I've looked for a graphics option to turn off the city buildings. There is one called "Detailed City Info", but the way it reads it is for some of the stuff in the city banner (religions, corps, etc), not for the actual city itself. I'll give it a try, though, to see if it helps. I already have animations frozen (although with that checked, stuff still moves around, which has to be a bug), low textures, single unit graphics, no combat zoom, quick moves, everything that could turn down graphics is down, except screen size. I really don't notice any difference in crashing between 1024x768, and 1280x1024 though, nor does being in or out of fullscreen seem to matter. When civ4 has used up all the video memory, plop, and it is happening more and more frequently, I may not be able to finish my game, which would be a big disappointment after all the work I put into it.

    B) PLANTED RESOURCES
    Consider the fish resource, with fishing boats. It has a little net, with bouys, and a boat, and fish (that swim and jump when animations are turned on). Each one of these requires more polygons in video memory.

    BTW: I think there are a number of video bugs in animations. I have animations turned off, so the fish don't swim or jump, the water doesn't ripple, etc. But I can see the following things moving around, which should not happen when animations are turned off:
    1. Little mine cart on mines moves.
    2. Flags on units wave in wind.
    3. Crane on quarry moves.
    4. Mass transit train moves in city.
    5. Glowing lights in pasture buildings and camp fire flicker.
    6. Naval mines bob in the water.
    7. Millstones/press rolls in orchard.
    8. Windmill turns in plantation.
    9. Radar station turns in city.
     
  5. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    OGI has a huge appetite for video memory and most on board video just doesn't meet the need. You really should consider getting a good video card, with at least 1 gig of memory (2 gig is much better). Once installed, OGI should play start to finish for you.
     
  6. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Haha, yeah, I know, I have a GeForce GTX660 sitting on the shelf. Kinda afraid to install it myself, my motherboard has the reputation of being quirky and difficult for that sort of thing (as in, needing BIOS upgrades and that sort of thing). I keep meaning to take it into the shop and have a tech do it. Maybe tomorrow.

    Sure would be nice if the video options were better, though. If the turn off animations worked right, that would be a start. Add an option to turn off the city buildings thing on the world map would help, too. I'd be happy with a DOT, and an informative label.

    I'm up to 1005 AD, 173 cities. Each city starts with 49 buildings in it, before I build anything. I've got enough of the commerce multipliers now that I'm running 100% science, almost 2.5 million science/turn, with positive cash flow, even though I've dramatically expanded corporations. I'm about 8-10 turns from the old future tech.

    I've been migrating immigrants to my capitol wholesale, capital will reach size 600 this turn. I have food for 800. I've shifted my capital to creating Great Artists (currently takes 6 turns to cycle), so I can get major conquered cities out of resistance. 40+ turns of resistance is a major drawback, they can't expand culture, and AI and barbs plant cities in the vacuum (I've had both happen in the last 10 turns).

    My capital has national forest, so population has no effect on health. Any other city I'd have to make a ton of doctors. K-Mod changed mass transit to reduce unhealth from population by a percentage, I think that makes more sense than a fixed health bonus. Oh, I'll add that to the list of changes above.

    My capital is also always happy (I don't recall offhand which wonder is in there). Not Globe Theater, I built that in another city, my Navy one, I think, but a different wonder. So I get to use all my pop for whatever GP I want. Any other city I'd have to devote a load of the specialists to health and happiness, that seems out of whack. I'm more likely to make a great entertainer or doctor than I am anything else.

    I guess if I make enough GEs and GDs that I could stack them up in a city, and eventually shift regular specialists away from doctor/entertainer to doing something productive. That would give me another major GP producer, for GPs that are useful for other things.
     
  7. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Some fun screen shots:

    1) What a difference a day makes.
    2) We welcome the cheap labor.
    3) We are RICH RICH RICH!
     

    Attached Files:

  8. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    I created an advisor screen to help manage my cities, the main one didn't have what I needed, and too much noise.

    1-2. City name and population fields are pretty clearcut.
    3-4. I put in the food columns so I could measure food against city size.
    5. This badly-named column (with the orange bread) is actually turns until growth. I generally want to see a 1 in the column, all the way down. Exceptions are building workers/settlers, and an immigrant.
    6-7. Health and happiness. I want to keep health positive so I don't waste food, but I don't want to waste specialists on doctors, either, not while I'm still teching. So if the health number is > 2 I subtract doctors (if there are any).

    Happiness is a bit more tricky. I need it positive, of course, or it screws up my cities. The problem is I go to war frequently, so I need a bit of margin. Once a city becomes unhappy, the city manager screws things up. When the city becomes happy again, it doesn't put things back the way they were. Instead it does its own thing, even when it is turned OFF, and it almost always does things WRONG (which is one of many reasons why the AI performs so poorly). Fixing the city governor would drastically improve the AI, because its cities would be managed properly.

    8. Specialists. Here I can see how many of each I have. I turned on the thing that puts the adjusters at the bottom of the screen, so I can make changes, while watching happiness, health, growth and build times. I can manage all my cities (and often do) from this screen.

    9-10. Academy, and total science. I use this screen to decide which city to put my next academy in, so I don't have to hunt all over the map for the best city.

    11. Religions. This might seem a little weird at first, but consider: how many priests should be available to build in a city? Does the city have all its temples built? Does it have spiritual specialists add-on built? You can tell at a glance if any of these are missing, by the number of religions in a city.

    12. Corporations. This field is a problem, it takes a lot of room. But knowing if a city has sushi provides info about how many farmers it needs (or more correctly, how much I gain by putting sushi in the city, getting rid of farmers for more productive tasks). I wanted a field that just gave me an X if the city has sushi, but that mechanism seems to be bugged (see the proposed mod list above).

    13-14. Base hammers, and hammers this turn.

    15. Number of turns to finish build. I want to see a 1 everywhere, if possible. I frequently rush stuff for gold, to build as many things as possible. I had a gold/turn budget (for instance, I'd spend 400 gold to save 1 turn in a city, so if it took 800 to finish a 3 turn build, I'd do it). My budget grew as my financial base grew. You want to waste as few turns as possible, keep churning stuff out.

    The only inflexible limit in the game is the number of turns, there are only so many. Competing against the AI means doing things in fewer turns than the AI does. This is especially important when you only have a few cities, and in getting new techs (a new tech affects your entire civ, not just one city).

    16. Current build. Is what I'm building complementary to how my specialists are assigned, and vice versa? Is completing it a turn earlier important enough to shift specialists from scientist to engineer? These are some of my considerations each turn. I also use it to make sure I'm building the max number of executives and missionaries each turn, so I convert/enhance as many cities as I can.


    There's a couple other things I'd LIKE on this screen. One is number of turns of resistance remaining, so I can easily find cities that are about to come out of resistance and check that their specialists are set right. The other one is the number of unworked tiles in the city. Right now the only way to examine what tiles are worked is to go to the city itself, which takes time, and on my system, often makes me crash to desktop. My main priority is to work tiles that produce 6 commerce or more, before assigning a scientist. A scientist gives GP points, of course, and a smattering of other stuff, but the tile will have food or hammers or both. Of course, priorities change throughout the game, and can vary from city to city.

    But as I write this I have 173 cities, I can't go look at each one of them at the end of each turn. So a field for unworked tiles, and a total of the resources they could potentially provide (like, total food, hammers, and commerce) would be a big help. I think that would take an SDK mod, though.

    I can FORCE unworked tiles to become worked, by clicking off specialists so I have citizens, and then clicking the - on citizens. Subtracted citizens will go work tiles, before becoming specialists. So if you click off a citizen and it becomes a specialist somewhere, then all tiles are worked. But, I can't see what is on those tiles, from the Domestic Advisor.

    At this point in the game my cities produce so much food, hammers and gold that I don't need to work many tiles, better to assign specialists for Great People. The exception is research, so if a tile produces more research than a scientist, I work the tile. This may change again as I switch some cities over to actually building research (until the tech tree is done). Then hammers on the tile are turned into research, so 4 hammers plus 3 commerce is better than a scientist.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Notice all the single hammers in the above screen? That's the dumb city governor (which is turned off, but assigns specialists (stupidly) anyway. Any time a city grows, it stupidly assigns a specialist, almost always an engineer, even in cities with 4000+ accumulated hammers, and building work boats. :eek:

    So, every turn I have to fix every one, to science, which I actually need. And please don't suggest I turn on emphasize science, that trashes so much OTHER stuff it is unbelievable.

    The city governor is SOOO DUMB. Just fixing it would make the AI 30% tougher, or better.

    The current AI isn't really AI at all. It just gives the AI extra units, and research/hammer bonuses, to try to make up for its bad decision-making. At higher levels the AI starts out with more settlers, and free workers and units. Big deal. This head start affects the power curve, so the AI will attack the player, who starts out in the hole, rather than other AI civs, who start out with the same advantages. This doesn't really provide a very rich playing experience, it is just obnoxious.

    Basically, it digs a big hole for the player at the beginning of the game. The higher the difficulty, the deeper the hole you start in. The player's task is to get out of the hole.

    Once you get out of the hole, the AI performs no better on deity than on chieftain, because its decision making is no better. Great AI would make the AI actually make different types of decisions at different difficulty levels.

    For example, say the AI is going to build an army. At warlord difficulty, it might build 3 rifles, give them all combat 3, and then join them. On prince, it will give one combat 3, the second one will get drill3, the 3rd one will get pinch3, so the resulting army has 9 promotions instead of 3. On diety, it will build a 4th rifle, give it something else, and when it enters the next era, it will combine 4 units, for a tougher army with even MORE promotions.
     
  10. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    I have been back for a couple of days and began work on the next version of OGI (version 3.07).

    1. Fixed SDK error that prevented orchards and plantations to work for resources related to tech calendar. This was a bonehead mistake. :hammer2:
    2. Added new unit Religious persecutor, which can be used only with the civic Atheism. Works like an inquisitor, except it removes all religions and associated buildings from a city.
    3. Added new SDK to get the specific Inquisitor for a given religion.
    4. Improved multiple python functions for inquisitions. Verified inquisitions do work.
    5. Fixed DCM SDK function in CvSelectionGroup.ccp file.
    6. Fixed rare SDK freeze up bug with Assassin units.
    7. Assassin units can't enter barbarian territory.
    8. Moved production bonus for Arctic Greenhouse to expansive trait.
    9. Moved production bonus for Farmers Market to Agriculture trait.
    10. Despotism civic is now enabled by Polytheism.
    11. Moved Slinger to tech Animal husbandry.
    12. Moved Stone thrower to tech Mysticism.
    13. Dye and Incense resources are now revealed with tech Mysticism.
    14. Workers with promotion skilled 5 can build a forest (limitation to prevent exploit).
    15. Orchards and Plantations now pass through irrigation, like farms.
    16. Art museum provides +2 happiness.
    17. Art Gallery provides +2 gold.
    18. Workers can plant cotton, with tech machinery.
    19. Workers can plant Sugar, with tech Monarchy.
    20. Workers can plant tobacco, with tech Monarchy.
    21. Adjusted Naval bombardment and collateral damage for most naval units that can be built after tech gunpowder.
    22. Fixed Railroad Administration Prerequisite, which is the Rail Yard.
    23. The Cyber Hacker now works.
    24. Changed cyber hacker missions to attack the specialist Management buildings.
    25. Cyber hacker missions are auto selected by a randomizer.
    26. The AI can now utilize the Cyber Hacker unit. :dance:
    27. Added SDK city population limit mod (My version). :dance:
    28. Initial base population limit is determined by the game level values set in the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml file.
    29. Initial base population limit range is between 15, for advanced level Deity; and 23, for beginners level Settler.
    30. There are four buildings that will increase the initial base city population limit by +20 each: MIDWIFE_TENT, ADOPTION_CENTER, FERTILITY_CLINIC and the CLONING_FACTORY.
    31. Unlimited city population is achieved only with tech genetics.
    32. Changed Assassin units flat terrain movement to ignore terrain costs.
    33. More to come.

    Version 3.07 will be released in only a few weeks, because of my bonehead mistake.
     
  11. Jennvare

    Jennvare Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    371
    Orion,

    Got a problem.
    In the current game I am playing, I cannot seem to build any plantations or orchards on the resources that require these buildings. It's not an option for my workers. Any idea why this might be?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    Yes. This was a problem that has been fixed in 3.07. See item 1 in post above (Bonehead mistake).
     
  13. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Odd, I have no problem building those, in 3.06. Is it a tech problem, where they aren't available as soon as they should be?

    EDIT: oops, I'm still playing 3.05A. Was this problem introduced in 3.06? Does it go away eventually, or is it impossible to build orchards? If so, I guess you have to go into worldbuilder to add them, after camping out your worker a suitable number of turns.
     
  14. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Hey, glad to see some of my ideas getting traction! Please please please fix the city governor, so it assigns population to work tiles and as specialists intelligently, as it stands it is idiotic.

    A system where we can create sets of rules, and assign a rule set to a city would be great. Baring that, a system that will make an educated guess, and will follow the lead of the player, assigning new population based on what the player is doing in the city would be good. For example, if the player is building all culture or something, then it would assign new population points in the same manner.

    If the AI assigned its population better, and organized its civics better, it would be act more effectively, and so would need fewer cheats.
     
  15. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    To revise the city governor is a huge undertaking. We plan on four changes that will hopefully eliminate a lot of frustration with the idiot city governor.

    1. We are going to build a manual mode that allows the player to have control over all citizens. The city governor will never realign your people again.

    2. We are going to attempt to change the city specialist graphics to numbers.

    3. We are going to build an option that will cap city growth.

    4. We are going to build an immigrant mode. Growth is capped and all additional growth is converted to immigrants.


    We are going to look at the tech tree and make some changes to where units and civics appear. Your suggestions are under review.

    We agree that opportunity fire needs to be improved.

    Not sure how to move a specific unit up the icon list. Any ideas? Agreed that lots of immigrants will needed to refill cities hit with nukes and neutron cruise missiles.

    We are reviewing the immigrant. There are always loses when uprooting and forcing people to move unwillingly.

    A great artist can culture bomb and reduce unrest time significantly. We are considering giving great person points for joining a city only; not for research, special buildings, golden age and discover tech.


    Great Thought. We will implement in a future version.

    The city already uses excess hammers on the next build. If you have so many hammers that is overwhelming your build cue, we would suggest you build something more expensive. Furthermore, if your back is against the wall, you can change to the correct civic and draft more units to protect you. Remember, in OGI all actions have consequences.


    If you want more health, then we suggest that you build more doctor specialists. You already know which civic gives you that capability. We will look at the health bonus provided by public transportation. We will also look at mass transit in the K-Mod. :) We are always looking for great new capabilities for OGI.

    Great catch. We need to look at this and fix it.


    Done. We are going to give commerce bonuses for fishing boats and improvements that increase gold. Since pasture only increases food, we are not going to give a commerce bonus to pastures.

    The percentage is very low. However, how do you like the prospecting promotion for workers? We believe it gives you a much higher percentage chance of discovering those scarce strategic resources.

    Being able to plant/cut a Forrest repeatedly for extra hammers is an exploit. Therefore, we have developed a new promotion that will only allow very experienced workers to plant a forest. We have also added the capability to plant cotton, tobacco and sugar. Rubber and horses will not be added as they are prerequisites for construction of units.

    Disagree with the concept of not planting/breeding a resource unless you have it. The knowledge of the resource and how to use it is gained by learning the technology. If I have the knowledge, I can plant vast orchards and fields starting with a few seeds. A small herd of an animal can grow to great multitudes of animals when they are bred and fed properly: That is the effect of the worker planting/breeding the resource. OGI is all about choice and we strive to make the mod unique in that no set strategy will ever work in all OGI games; there are just too many variables. A scripted playbook is a recipe for defeat and disaster. In the end, most foreign trade will disappear as everyone will gain access to nearly all resources. Strategic resources are hard to get, while luxury resources will eventually spread to all.


    This is not currently being considered due to the high probability that this will be used as an offshore airfield exploit. However, we are looking into the possibility of building an underwater city.

    We put a limit on national wonders in cities to force players to carefully consider which national wonders to put in each city so that specialization cities could be built. Further, what happens to your national wonders when the city they are in is nuked or captured?
    It really stinks to loose all of those free buildings in every city when you loose the national wonders. LOL :) It is dangerous to put all of your eggs in one basket in OGI.

    We have never modified any of the city overview screens. No doubt a learning curve here. The ability to assess how many specialist are in each city on a single overview screen would be a valuable empire management tool. This will be looked at for future versions. At this time, Corporations are not a strong point of OGI. Post a screen shot of exactly what corporation fields you are talking about. The city scrolling is there so that if you click the icon to the left of the city name it will bring up the city screen.

    Done for 3.07.

    Experience for a unit is only used to add promotions. The amount of experience points a unit possesses has no bearing on combat or survivability; only promotions affect it. Promotions function on an increasing number of experience points needed to reach the next level. Thus, an upgraded unit with fewer experience points will regain levels and promotions faster, than if it retained its original experience points and levels.

    researching this. Short answer: Flat movement costs means every square costs one movement point no matter what the terrain or improvement. Roads and railroad advantages are negated. We need a fix.

    Fixed in 3.07.

    Agree. Will fix.

    Integrated Air defense units are immoveable city point defense units. If you need mobile air defense, use the mobile SAM unit. We agree that more documentation is always needed.

    No police or SWAT team will ever have the infrastructure and fire power of a trained military unit. In OGI, police units exist to combat assassin units and thwart spies. Historically, the national guard or militia units are brought in to restore order during large scale civil unrest, when police units are simply overwhelmed. Police units keep peace; military units ENFORCE peace.

    We will look at the multiple attack feature of the C130.

    We have confirmed the combo of 3 flanking + 3 guerrilla promotions prevent you from adding a GG to a unit. Fix is needed.


    In real life, ice breakers must work continuously to break ice and keep sea lanes open. We looked at having the ice reform after a number of turns, but decided that permanent removal was easier. The limited number of ice breakers is a compromise so that ice is not cleared away too quickly.

    There are certain specialists that will never be unlimited in caste system: Farmers, Engineers, Spies and Priests. The reason for this is we have experienced severe game imbalance when those specialists are unlimited.

    See above comments about lack of experience modifying overview pages. Will research. Check the shadowing of the tech tree and you will see that the era color is the shadow color; an easy way to determine unit era. BTW, Why would you want to build obsolete units?

    We have worked with a mod in civ 3 that allowed three radius cities. It was an experience not necessarily good. We have a great use for all of those people. When I use them to produce huge amounts of culture or espionage, that is really devastating to civs on my borders. I have gained multiple cities by culture overwhelm and regularly sit in the councils of the other civs as I can see their city screens as easily as they can. Just a thought.


    Marines and paratroops are the ultimate in sea and air assault just as mech units are the ultimate in infantry assault. ...Three different units with three different missions. That's our reasoning. Besides, if everything can be reduced to a single unit in the upgrade tree... what fun is clone attack; the variety forces a player to use various strategies.


    Mech infantry are maneuver units just like armor. Garrison is more of a static stationing of units to control and defend cities. That is a defensive capability. Why would I need ground defense units, if I gave everyone a garrison bonus?

    The minesweeper has a hard coded 3 square detection range. Adding movement really messed up the detection/removal process. Additional visibility means nothing to a minesweeper, as it cannot detect more that three squares and it can't be attacked. Additional visibility would just be used as a scouting exploit. We need more documentation to properly explain this in the OGI mod. :thanx:


    Historically, wet rice farming has occurred on hills and plains as long as water is present. We will look at this.

    Not sure why you cannot remove mine. Are you pressing the mine removal icon when you move into the square containing the hostile mine? The AI removes automatically, but the player must manually remove it.
    land/water detection problem
    Excellent catch. Needs to be fixed. Need to adjust for domain.

    Interesting thought. will definitely research. Mines are killing people in North Africa long after the English and Germans are gone.

    Yes, this is very annoying. one must carefully build and research to avoid multiple tech advances in a single turn. The game is convinced that that you are cheating. Will research.

    The city bar is packed. Religions and corporations also show on the city bar. Power is easily tracked in a single location on the city overview screen by adding the column. I also add the any important buildings to the overview screen. Modifying the overview screen will give you the info you want in a single glance.


    This is an exploit which we try to avoid. Will research and fix.

    Done in 3.07

    The agriculture trait deals with national wonders and food production. Moved Farmer's market from expansive to agriculture. Expansive is not faster movement; it is fast growth of empire. We moved artic greenhouse to expansive for alignment as expansive is now mainly concerned with individual buildings that retain food supplies which promotes population growth in cities. Nomad trait is the movement trait.


    There are XML attack limits on some air attacks. That is so civs cannot be just bombed into oblivion from a distance. YOU have to go in and get dirty with direct attack. There is no killing all units and walking into a city unopposed. Would not be sporting.

    Fixed in 3.07. Excellent observation :thanx:

    Agreed


    Traits. Agriculture is a food production trait. It works everywhere. Seafaring is a movement/transportation trait. It concerns control of the seas, not farming them.

    Thanks immensely for your comments and suggestions. They WILL make OGI a much better mod.
     
  16. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    It would be helpful if we could shift-click on the +/- keys for adding/subtracting specialists, both on the city screen and on the domestic advisor. Shift[+] would add all unassigned citizens to that specialist, Shift[-] would remove all population assigned to that specialist, putting them in the general citizen pool. Shift[-] on citizens would push all citizens to work tiles, until tiles are full.

    EDIT: Shift[+] on citizens would pull all population from tiles and specialists to unassigned citizens.


    If my descriptions were unclear, let me know.


    I think it is in the SDK, it has to do with this function:

    CvCity::chooseProduction() UnitTypes eTrainUnit, BuildingTypes eConstructBuilding, ProjectTypes eCreateProject, bool bFinish, bool bFront Void Creates the pop-up for the human player to choose the next construction project that the city will have, and fills it with the recommended unit, or recommended building, or the recommended project. This function is only used for the human player.

    http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/CvCity

    I'm not clear if you have to pass in the production list, the eTrainUnit parameter? If so, you will have to track down where that gets populated from, and work backwards to its source. My guess is each unit has an ordinal value.


    A valid point, but 50% is waaaaay too much, and I cannot see how you can do something less. So my suggestion is to just let it go. You could increase the hammer cost to build an immigrant.

    EDIT: Or, if you change immigrant to represent TWO pop points, instead of one, then you can reduce pop by 3 when built. Or, you could do 3 pop for a cost of 4 pop points. This would have the benefit of reducing the number of units to be built, less micromanagement.


    When you assign population to specialists, each specialist gives great people points. The points required to generate a great person are based on this.

    But Great People, who are permanently attached to a city, don't contribute to your GP point count each turn. I think that is wrong. A Great Scientist should generate at least as many points each turn as a scientist specialist.

    If you are contemplating removing GP points from specialists, you will have to change the amount of GP points you need to gain a GP.



    Maybe you could start with a pirate instructor and a pirate fleet, and leave the Great Pirate until later.


    I have cities, many cities where I have already built everything. Some have backlogs of thousands of hammers, and nothing remaining to build but units. Karadoc's multi-unit mod would be a big help.

    Eh, the point of Corporatism is to make everything a business. That is why orchards generate commerce. It's not like they grow gold on their trees, they grow food. Just like pastures. So, why wouldn't pastures do so? After all, horse racing, pig farming and cattle raising are three of the largest commercial enterprises in agriculture today.


    I haven't played 3.06 yet, still struggling to finish the research tree on my huge 3.05A game. But I haven't had a SINGLE new-found resource from a mine (and I have literally dozens, if not hundreds, of mines, check my map), so it is broken.


    Well, when you plant a cottage, it grows over time to produce more gold. A planted forest can grow over time into its full chop value. This is what lumber and paper companies do...they farm trees, like farmers grow wheat or corn. They own vast tracts of land, where they plant trees, let them grow for decades, and harvest them. this guarantees them a steady supply of raw material.

    Do workers gain experience by building stuff?

    To plant an orchard, you have to have something to plant. You can know everything there is to know about growing corn, but if you don't have corn seeds, you can't plant bupkiss. So, you have to have access first, sort of like the chicken and the egg. You can get it from trade, or find your own, but until you do, you can't plant it.



    You mean like aircraft carriers? With the range on planes, you don't need to plant cities nearby. I suppose you could do it, but I don't see it as being an advantage not available elsewhere. But being able to build bridges is cool. Super cool, take a look at the map in the save file I uploaded.

    Here's an exploit: parking aircraft carriers in your cities, so you can have more planes on patrol protecting them. 1000+ planes in the airspace of a city is doable.

    Underwater cities would be COOL. How do they work tiles? Where do they get hammers?

    There should be resources under ice. You'd have to tinker with the map generator.


    Well, city specialization goes out the door with the wonders that put buildings in every city.

    It was never as big an advantage as strategists make it out to be. All cities generate some of each type of product (gold, hammers) and all can benefit from different buildings. To not build those buildings is to let part of a city's production go un-enhanced, and that is inefficient.

    The points you raised are true, but then why not apply them to world wonders (where their application would be even more telling), as well as national wonders? The only reason why the base game has this restriction is to keep people from stacking Ironworks with various military wonders. But I have thousands of hammers in my cities, and I never bothered to build Ironworks anywhere (check my save file, it is still available to be built). I'll tack on an update to my game save file down below.

    I've already posted SS of my specialist management screen, but I'll do some playing around later and post a SS of the messed up Sushi field.

    Duh, I know how promotions work. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

    Say you have an Axeman with 50 XP, from whacking on cities in the early game. If you upgrade him to maceman, his XP gets chopped down to 10. He won't get a new promotion until he is back up above 50. That's a lot of ground to regain, which strikes me as silly. It would make more sense if he kept a percentage of his XP, instead of a hard-coded, capped value.

    Of course, if you upgrade the unit again, it gets chopped back down to 10 again, and you have to start all over again.


    The fix is this:
    In friendly territory, you use roads. In enemy territory, you use roads if you have the commando promotion (which the command unit starts with). Otherwise, you use the flat movement thing, which really just says that rough terrain doesn't impede you as much as it it does regular units, because of your training. Advanced training shouldn't slow you down. A unit with flanking 1-2 and two more promotions to ignore extra movement costs moves around the map better than commandos, as things stand.


    If it is immoveable, why isn't it a building?

    Airplanes don't move on roads, but they have a rebase function. I can see that a bulky setup like Patriot missile batteries wouldn't go roaming around the countryside either, at least not very fast. But you still need to move them into position, so some mobility is necessary, as well as the ability to airlift them into the theater of operations. Whether or not they have to stay in cities is a design decision. So, what is the role of integrated air defense? What does it integrate with?

    And why does it have an archery barrage button????

    And why does it start each turn with its movement light set to red? Does that affect its game performance?

    And yet, a police unit will keep a warrior from moving in and occupying a city (in fact, if the warrior attacked, it would probably bite it). So police do have some combat ability. So why can't they get better at it? Especially considering that many police have been in the army.

    It is very peculiar to conquer a city and occupy it, then move in a police unit, reveal a hidden sniper unit, and no longer be able to move in ships or other units, without attacking it first. It is peculiar because you can move units though the city unimpeded, until you bring a police unit nearby. If you move the police unit away, you can move through the city unimpeded again.


    Eh, there are ways around that, like making colonies of your cities that are in ice regions, and gifting them icebreakers. It's just so tedious. There is so much ice on a huge map that you'd need 100 or more ice breakers to "mow the grass" and make a significant dent. Still, some people might find it fun (at least once), if they want to do the micromanagement.

    I was actually considering a scenario, where all players start out ice-locked, with maybe just a few coast tiles with open water (near a volcano, maybe?). You'd have to break trail through the ice to invade anyone, or access your ocean resources.

    BTW, it would be cool if there was land you could occupy and terraform once you cleared the ice. But that sort of game is not really practical, with the national limit on icebreakers. So your limit constrains the sorts of games you can think up and play.


    You need to look at my save file, closely. In most of my cities I have NO engineers, priests, or spies, and no farmers now, either, at least for a while.


    To build armies with more starting promotions. Sure, I can check the tech tree. It means I have to leave the city screen, though, which makes it tedious.


    I won a domination victory once in civ4 with always peace set. It took a while, but it is doable. Owning all 7 religions, and building lots of cathedrals on your borders is a big help.

    Check my game file, look at my espionage. I have no need of spies. I have no need of culture in my inner cities, except to produce great artists to get cities out of resistance.


    If marines and paratroops are assault units, why do they get city garrison promotions, when mech infantry does not?

    Garrisons in large cities require transportation. According to the game, my capital city has Billions (with a B) of people in it. It is HUGE.

    Marines and paratroops with city garrison are no match for modern armor with city attack promotions. Modern cities need something better. Right now, the only way to get city garrison promotions on a mech infantry is to promote riflemen. But, once you get the tech for mechs, you can't build riflemen any more.

    Ah, I didn't know the detection radius was fixed, I thought visibility helped. Movement is a MAJOR problem on huge maps. It's 100 squares from north to south. At 4 speed that's 25 turns, might as well delete them and build new ones. That's a bit silly, when my galleons can move 9 or 10 (base 4, nav5, one for circumnavigate).

    As for a scouting exploit, submarines work better, because they can move inside cultural boundaries. For that matter, so can mines, although you cannot activate them, unless the city goes into rebellion and the culture radius is temporarily negated (yay, a use for spies).

    Plains != flatlands. Plains is a climate type. Wet plains = grassland. No rice farms in Kansas, it is too dry. I know you can terrace a hill and irrigate it to make rice paddies. It should be grassy hill, though. The globe is like 7000 miles from pole to pole. A map that is 100 squares NS means each square is 70 miles by 70 miles. Plains means on average, not as much water as grassland. I think that would limit rice farming severely.


    Yes, I click it. It makes a thump or ping or something, and tells me I removed it. But it doesn't actually remove it. Move another unit in and it can blow up. I've removed the same mine 15 times in a row, and it is still there. There are only two ways to get rid of them:

    A) blow it up with a ship.
    B) kill the civ.

    In the save file I have a mine sweeper sitting in AI territory somewhere. You can search my minesweepers in the military advisor.


    Yeah, they are inanimate, plant them and forget about em. There are still large WWII minefields off the coasts of Japan. Mines/farms/fishing boats don't go away when a civ dies. Mines shouldn't, either. Just assign them to barbarians when a civ dies (although that will let barb ships see them).

    In non-OGI games, I end up putting labels on the map for cities with airports, so when I'm moving units and need an airport, or airlifting units around, I can find them fast. But it takes up a lot more space than an icon in the city bar would. I'd rather have airport than power, actually, because of the city screen thing you mention. You don't need to know power when looking around the map, but seeing airports can be very useful.

    In standard civ4, there is a power icon. However, it is not showing up in OGI.

    In my OGI game I have the buildings that give airports and airfields in all cities, so I don't need to guess. Every city can airlift away 2 units, receive unlimited units, and can host 12 planes.


    I get that.

    BUT.

    A single attack on an undamaged caravel has a small chance to sink it, in a city. I've done it. I've sunk other ships in harbor.

    BUT.

    If the ship is damaged down to 50%, you can attack forever, and it will tell you you attacked it, but you do no damage, and you have ZERO chance to actually sink it.

    Also, this only applies to ships inside cities, not all units.

    It makes no sense that you have a chance to sink an undamaged ship, but no chance to sink a damaged one.

    You're welcome, I want civ4 to become better and better; it's the best of the civ genre, in my opinion.

    I love Karadoc's AI mod, but I love building, too, and there are things the game should be able to build that you can't. OGI provides that. Heaven would be merging the two mods, so you can build all that stuff, AND the AI is smart, too.

    NOTE: this save file is 3.05A

    I took off the limits on national wonders. Not that it matters a lot, my central cities are safe from invasion, and there are lots of them. Building stuff in the same city is mostly about convenience.

    Ice breakers limits are off too I think, although I haven't got around to building any, my turns already take too long. If there was land and resources under the ice, then ice breakers would be a huge part of the game.

    Build my specialists screen that I posted up above, do a turn, and see how the city governor assigns all the new citizens.
    Check out the number of hammers, science, and the amount of food in my cities.
    Check out how cool all the bridges are (I built a couple small islands in world builder, to help out).
    Check out how it looks, building rice on plains. Kinda ugly, but it makes economic sense to trade one food for one hammer, as long as the game rules allow it.
    The game is set to conquest only, I've got 3 civs left to win.
    Check out the wait times on conquered cities. I think it needs some tweaking. A city in resistance for 40 turns after the civ is dead seems unrealistic.
    I'm currently working to build more great artists to get cities out of resistance, but that seems an ungraceful solution.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Okay, here's the screen shots for the corporation fields in the domestic advisor. I figured out what the data in the one field is, it is the effects of the headquarters building in my capital: 1 GP point (merchant), 552 gold, 2 culture. This ignores the effects of the corp in the city, big food and culture, but high maintenance. Basically, I'm paying about 32 gold for each additional food in the city, which is pretty ridiculous, really.

    I don't know what kind of math the game is doing on corporate maintenance costs, it doesn't seem to be straight-line. I don't recall corps costing so much when the benefits were lower. If it wasn't for the big gold multipliers from the apocalypse techs, my civ would implode. Hmm, wonder what would actually happen if I deleted my federal reserve buildings.

    What would be a big help would be a field that shows if an individual corp is in a city or not, so I don't have to use the overall corporations field, that takes up so much space in the display.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Some thoughts about forests:

    I originally suggested planting forests not so they could be harvested, but as global warming offsets. I never saw any sign of global warming in the huge game I was playing, though, even though I was almost through future tech.

    (I lost the save file, so I never did finish it. Well, actually, I accidentally wrote over it with the vanilla deity game I'm playing now, about to finish a conquest victory).

    So, I'm not particularly interested in chopping forests. In fact, it is something I only do rarely. I like lumber mills with railroads, especially on grasslands, or on plains hills (especially in games where I almost never find new resources).

    I'm more interested in using them as steady hammer generators. It would be nice if we could plant them where we have orchards, without losing the orchard, to generate an extra hammer from the plot. I can't see planting them on a farm, but we should be able to plant them on forts, and on camps, and maybe on (some) plantations, too, without disrupting the other improvements on the tile. Maybe on rubber and banana plantations, where there are lots of trees. Probably not on cotton, which requires open fields. Definitely on coffee and silk, and maybe tea.

    The trees provided needed shade for some types of plants, which otherwise can be destroyed by the sun. So by sharing the land, trees can be select-cut, and provide a steady supply of hammers.
     
  19. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,443
    Location:
    Newport News VA
    I have been busy with the OGI Cyber Hacker code. Beginning with 3.07, the AI will utilize the Cyber Hacker unit. Hacker missions have been toned down, but can be an annoyance to the hacked civ. A successful hack will remove one type of specialist management building from all of the victim's cities. All of a sudden the victim has less city specialists! We chose the buildings that caste system does not cover. :mwaha:

    Working on AI use of the Diplomat next.
     
  20. DavidCooke

    DavidCooke Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    That sounds over-powered. Compare that to the effort it takes to build espionage points, and put a spy in an opponent's city, and destroy one building. The hacker sounds dreadfully unbalanced. I hope there is an option to disable it.
     

Share This Page