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Orion's Home School 2: Nobles in Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Orion071, Oct 27, 2007.

  1. Orion071

    Orion071 Home School Tutor

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    Welcome to round 2 of my Home School thread where I show beginning players that winning on Noble should actually be pretty easy. I'll go step-by-step through my turns and my thought process. Feel free to ask me any question about anything that you don't understand or want futher clarification on.

    In this game, I'm playing as Zara Yaqob of the Ethiopians. Zara is Creative and Organized and starts off with Hunting and Mining. Zara is a dream leader for the wanna-be builder. Organized lets you expand a little more rapidly than usual, due to the lower civic maintenance. Creative lets you put cities in their optimal place, rather than forcing you to build next to resources for quicker access. In addition, his traits allow you to build a Library, Theatre, Colosseum, Lighthouse, Factory and Courthouse all at double speed!

    Zara's unique unit is the Oromo Warrior, a replacement for the Musketman. The Oromo Warrior is immune to First Strikes and start with Drill I and II. They can be promoted down the Drill line and turn into impressive Drill IV Riflemen. The unique building is the Stele, a replacement for the Monument that gives an additional 25% culture. To me, this is one of the weakest UB's in the game. Zara is Creative, so he doesn't even have to build Monuments to expand borders. Not to mention that early cities don't have all that much culture to multiply anyway. The building is useful towards a Cultural Victory, since when I go cultural, I won't even research as far as Astronomy to obsolete the Stele. My goal for this game is Space, so chances are I will not even feature this building at all.

    I will be using a Continents map, Standard size, with low sea level. I'm playing this game on Noble and Epic speed. Here's my starting position:



    Hmmm, only Cows in the BFC. I can see what looks like 4 Floodplains to go with the Cows, so that's a total of +7 food (2 from city center, 1 each from the Pastured Cows and the Floodplains). I have what looks like 6 hills, 4 Grassland and 2 Plains, along with 2 additional Plains tiles. That's a total of -10 food for the Hills and Plains, meaning that I'll need 3 Farms or Windmills to be able to work all 20 tiles (pre-Biology). This city will be a production powerhouse in the early game, and has plenty of Cottage potential to be a super-science city in the late game.

    I can't really consider moving my Settler anywhere since there isn't anywhere too exciting for him to go. I could move my Scout SW and explore there, but there's a little too many Plains in that direction for my taste. If I find some food resource there like Sheep or Wheat, then I can reasonably place a second city in that direction. I'm a little leery that I'm starting in the desert belt, because large sections of desert don't leave a lot of nice city locations. My first 2 cities in my last game were far away from my capital partly for that reason. However, rivers make Floodplains, and a Floodplain site could make a very nice Cottage city. It's hit-or-miss, depending on how many Floodplains you have.

    I can see that Animal Husbandry is needed for those Cows, Pottery for the Floodplains and Bronze Working for the Hills. I'm thinking an early research path of Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel -> Pottery. Yes, with Hunting, I can start on AH right away, but Agriculture is required for Pottery anyway, and will give me a bonus to researching AH. I'll still have AH ready by the time my Worker appears.

    I'll start out building a Worker. I'm a little disappointed in the apparent lack of resources around, but I won't let that stop me from starting with the Worker. The lack of early growth will easily be offset by a Pasture on those Cows. A Pasture will turn that tile into a 3:food: 3:hammers: 1:commerce: tile, which is far better than working 2 unimproved tiles at size 2. I want to expand quickly in this game, so my Worker will probably chop a Settler before starting on Cottages for those Floodplains.

    I'll start the game later tonight. I won't post the initial save until after I finish my first round.
     
  2. tboner23

    tboner23 Chieftain

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    That seems a weak start for Noble, my current game started with only Gems and Bananas visible, but had a second banana, rice, and Sugar in the BFC. There are most likely other resources in the second ring, or some strategic resources to show up. I would have moved the scout immediately 1 SE to see if there is anything before I decide to settle, but there aren't any other resources to tempt you away from the original location.
     
  3. Deriem

    Deriem Chieftain

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    Orion071, thank you so much for making this thread and its predecessor. It's really helped me get a better understanding of game mechanics and tech trees/trading. No more going for a tech just because it would take one less turn :D

    In this game, my wee observations would be the amount of forests allow you to go for an early wonder-chop. Oracle is the obvious choice (I think), especially if Marble showed up in your BFC. But if stone were to appear, would the Pyramids help at all? I'm thinking the transformation you hinted at (production --> super science) would work well with Pyramids, as the +:hammers: and the +:science: from Bureaucracy can play both sides.

    Thanks for thinking of the noob! :goodjob:
     
  4. Jeff O'Connor

    Jeff O'Connor Chieftain

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    Thanks, for everything you're doing for us, Orion. I've been reading up on your previous thread, and am looking forward to this one, as well. I won my first few games recently on Warlord, but my girlfriend plays as well, and she sets hers to Warlord to match mine, but is more experienced and up until recently, has pretty much always gotten The Oracle, founded like four religions, used them properly, made friends of everyone and enemies for me, then slaughtered me tech-wise.

    She's taught me a few things, but now, so have you. This is sweet.
     
  5. Orion071

    Orion071 Home School Tutor

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    I agree, it's a pretty weak start. From the looks of things, I doubt that I have any other resources in the fog to my south. It looks like all 3 tiles have a forest on them, so I won't get any more resources. Because of that, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Copper or Iron appear on the grassland hill SE of my Settler.


    The amount of Forests that BtS tends to give you will always allow you to chop-rush an early wonder. From what I said above, it doesn't look like I'll have Marble or Stone either, but we'll see what's in the surrounding terrain. I'm not really a fan of the early wonders because I'd rather use those hammers to expand instead. It's possible that I could go through the early game without building ANY of the wonders until the Great Library. I think that would go a long way towards showing that you don't need to chase the early wonders to be successful.

    I'm not sure what you're hinting at with the Pyramids above. Bureaucracy is unlocked with Civil Service, and isn't a government civic made available with the Pyramids. The Pyramids are useful for early use of Representation and specialists, which I said in my previous thread is an economy that I rarely run.
     
  6. Deriem

    Deriem Chieftain

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    How come, for the life of me, I thought bureau was a government civic? Well then, that makes me feel like an idiot :( In that case this really is a poor start. Going to be fun to watch you work your way out of this one :lol:
     
  7. Orion071

    Orion071 Home School Tutor

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    Don't worry about it. Noob questions are why I'm here. ;)

    If I could run Bureaucracy from the Pyramids, I'd build them every time. :D

    I don't consider this a poor start. It's certainly not a good start, but it's not poor either. The city only has OK short-term potential, good medium-term potential, and excellent long-term potential. In the modern age, this city will be an absolute monster. But if the surrounding area is as resource-poor as my capital, then this will indeed be a bad start.
     
  8. Nickzilla

    Nickzilla Chieftain

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    I'm looking forward to this. I've gotten space race victories on noble before, but never as early as you were advertising in the other thread. (1700's was it?)
     
  9. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    It would absolutely shock me if either of those resources were to appear there.

    The problem is that the hill has a straight segment of river running along one edge. I'm planning to write this up tonight, but the short answer is that the strategic metals of the ancient era have a "don't put these next to rivers" flag set in the xml file.

    I don't have my notes with me, but my recollection is that the only strategic resource which can appear on that tile is coal, and maybe uranium (not aluminum - wrong flavor of hill).

    Corners of rivers (for instance, the tile the cows are on) are treated differently from straight edges.

    The two pieces to this I need to investigate further: verifying that metals can pop into mines adjacent to rivers, and checking to see what happens when the start normalizer kicks in.

    Edit: of course, I look elsewhere in the forum, and Snaaty is running a walkthru with copper appearing on a riverside. As noted above, I am shocked :(
     
  10. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    It's a fine start. The capital can work 6 hills for 24 base production at size 10. Thats 36 hammers with Bureaucracy, 45 with Bur and forge, 54 in OR. That's a lot of early game production, and if a better cottage site shows up, a pure production capital is not such a bad thing.
     
  11. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    I'd call this start a monster in the early game and in the end game. It could have a little more flexability as it looks like some of the floodplains have to be farmed. Its cottage potential is meh, but its production will be high all game. Early game it works cows, FPs and mines (alot of them on rivers, too) - all good tiles. Late game with leevee and/or corps/StateProperty, it could get way up there in :hammers:. I don't see a much better city for the Ironworks.
     
  12. Orion071

    Orion071 Home School Tutor

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    ROUND 1 (4000 BC - 2675 BC)

    We have a lot of speculation right now and not many facts. So it's time to get started and answer a few of these questions.

    Turn 1: I move the Scout SW-SE but it doesn't reveal anything useful. So I settle in place. The hut pops for a map showing mostly desert between my capital and the coast. Research starts on Agriculture and I build a Worker.

    Turn 2: My Scout continues south and sees Tundra. So I'm on the southern end of this continent.

    Turn 4: I spot some Marble in the Tundra. There's some decent resources around, but I'd hate to put an early city in such poor terrain.

    Turn 11: Agriculture is in and I go for Animal Husbandry. The Worker will appear 1 turn before AH is done.

    Turn 12: My first opponent appears:



    Gus is very close by. Rome is only 12E, 1N of Aksum. Possibly an early rush target. I certain don't want to have to face his UU.

    Turn 13: The very next turn:



    Louis is on my list of unpredictable backstabbing leaders. I just don't like him.

    Turn 19: Gus founds Buddhism and converts. A Holy City capital is very difficult to rush due to the high cultural defense. Maybe he'll be nice enough to build me a Shrine before I take it from him...

    My Scout has popped nothing but Gold from huts so far. Gold isn't too bad. I have a pretty nice amount so far (200+).

    Turn 22: I start on a Scout for 1 turn so the Worker and AH will come in at the same time.

    Turn 24: The Worker is done. He'll Pasture the Cows and then Mine the hill without a Forest on it. I continue to build the Scout. I need to see how boxed in I am.

    Animal Husbandry is in and I switch to Bronze Working. Horses appear in the Tundra to the south. They would be just outside the BFC of a city I was planning on the coast.

    My Scout shows Ocean to my north as well. I don't have a lot of room to expand, so I need to Settle some cities quickly in the area between Gus and myself.

    Turn 31: I spot Louis' territory in the north. The fact that the 3 of us are so close together tells me that there should be even more civs on this continent.

    Hinduism is founded in a distant land.

    Turn 33: My 2nd Scout is done. I'm going to send him north to see who else I'm dealing with. I'll build a Warrior and then start on my first Settler.

    Turn 42: Bronze Working is done. Next is The Wheel. There's 2 sources of Copper that I can see. One is to my SE, in the Tundra and the other is far to my NW, just to the south of Paris. Once again the early strategic resources are not kind to me. I can easily build a city to grab the first Copper, but it won't be a very good city. I may have no choice.

    I revolt to Slavery. Most likely I won't use it in the capital right now. It doesn't grow quickly enough for me.

    Turn 52: My Scout pops a map in the north. Maybe the 3 of us are alone after all.

    Turn 53: The Wheel is done and it's time for Pottery. The Settler is done as well. Let's look at my territory:



    The purple city is Rome. Louis is the other purple fog at the top of the screen.

    It looks like Yellow dot is going to be city #2. I would rather expand towards my enemies, but I need that Copper to attack Gus.

    I'm going to stop here. Do you want to see an Axe rush on Gus? Silly question. Of course you do. Stay tuned...

    Here's the save for the beginning and the current turn:

    View attachment Zara Yaqob BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

    View attachment Zara Yaqob BC-2675.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  13. tboner23

    tboner23 Chieftain

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    Would there be time for both blue and white cities before rushing Gus? Or would that put you into Iron Working territory and the Praetorian? If it does I think settling the white city after the yellow would be the best. With creative it might help to block off the NW and Black city spot from Louis XIV and, while you build up for war, from Gus.
     
  14. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I think 12 square distance between your capital and Gus is quite a long distance especially since the copper city would be even farther away. Is Gus still creative in BtS? That's a lot of road to be built anyway. Is this game on epic speed?
     
  15. uncarved block

    uncarved block Prince

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    This set up highlights one thing this builder had to learn right away-- when to recognize war was inevitable, and how to strike first and decisively. If blue dot was a better site, I'd even consider a Chariot rush on Augustus, chopping those Forests for another capitol rather than a wonder. Louis is a pain, but if you have six cities while he has three or four, life gets a lot easier.

    If you could, Orion, spend more time on the city development aspect I'd be much obliged. I can get a tech advantage and war, but over 200 beakers by turn 200 or so-- that, that I cannot do.

    Launching in the 1700s? Sounds cool. I was able to pull off an 1864 launch once in Warlords, and a couple before 1900 as well. Everything in BtS has been in the 1960s, or later, though I did give up on a lot of games before the AI was improved by the 3.13 patch.

    Will be following this one a lot more closely than the last one. Thanks again for taking the time to post these.
     
  16. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I think an axerush on Augustus is a good move but also a very risky one but nevertheless, go for it!! Anyways, considering the dotmap .. I'd move the blue city 1S to encompass the horses and I'd discard the white city and instead build the red city 1NE. Either way, great first game.
     
  17. dermoth

    dermoth Chieftain

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    First up, more thanks from a fan of the previous thread, which was incredibly helpful, to the point where I'm breezing through Noble. Not so, Prince, but one step at a time, eh? Anyway, this should be interesting, especially as I just failed with an axe rush against Churchill on Prince, despite having Iron appear under an existing mine by my capital. (Disclosure - it started out as an extremely misguided warrior rush, giving Churchill a ton of super-archers and a Great General. Not smart, but we live and learn, or, in this case, die and learn).

    As you say, taking Gus out seems like a smart move before his UU eats you alive. I say, clobber him quicksharp.
     
  18. Speedy36

    Speedy36 Chieftain

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    This early war tactic is very interesting.

    Rome is always a dangerous opponent in the early game especially because of its UU. The problem I have with early wars is keeping up financially and making sure tiles are still being improved.

    I'm very interested in seeing how you balance this while you chase Gus around the continent, as he avoids "the inevitable." ;)

    Side note: His introduction is probably the most irritating because it makes me want to demolish him. :ar15:
     
  19. MrFelony

    MrFelony Prince

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    I disagree about that being a weak start. that's a pretty good one. sure it doesn't have gems or 2 corn or w/e but it has a lot of production and commerce potential. you can cottage the FPs and stil have +5:food:. this means that size 8 population you could run 4 cottage FPs, 1 cow, 2 plains hill mines and 1 Grass mine yielding 15 :hammers: and a lot of :commerce:. If you farmed those FPs, you'd have 9:food: and be able to run 3 of your plains hills and 3 grass hill mines for 25 :hammers:. or if you'd like, just cottage all of those river tiles and you'd have a :commerce: bonanza. i also think that the capitals base 2:food: only pays for itself, so the +7:food: is misleading.
     
  20. Carabodes

    Carabodes Timid Viking Warlady

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    Thank you for keeping up your good work.
    I'll be following your thread with interest, hoping to learn much more. I've just upped myself to warlord, but found I'm still greatly out-teching the AI (which is boring), so maybe noble is the right level for me to try in the next few days, enhanced by your help.

    I'd love to see an early rush since that's really my weak point.
    I never get my timing right, and always seem to miss it by just a couple of rounds, in hindsight I can see that "Oh, I should have rushed at excactly that moment!" Mostly I think it's because I suffer from the "just-need-one-more-axe-before-I-go"-syndrome.

    In the dotmap, what are your reasons for keeping horses out of your BFC in the blue city? Is your choice based on the fact that it gives more landtiles and less oceantiles? I would automatically have settled 1S of your bluedot to get the horses inside my borders. Would that be wrong?

    I don't know how the AI is programmed to "think" (apart from them more often than not being idiots), but Rome is almost totally covered with forests, so maybe Augustus has gone for bronzeworking early too. If that is the case, he may settle early on his copper. Would it be an idea to send a scout/warrior down there to "keep an eye on things"? I'd hate for your axes to meet him prepared with more than archers.

    If I had that map, I would settle yellow dot for the copper and start spamming axes there, whilst building one more warrior/settler/worker in the capital. I would then settle red dot and let a worker build a road there, then let all 3 cities spam axes and send all axes to red dot for the launch. Is it this kind of thinking that makes my axerushes "die before they start"? Is the founding of a third city the cause of my "Ups, too late"-problems?

    A lot of questions, I know, but you said in your last thread that we should not be afraid to ask ;)
    I really want to learn how to master warfare, I win all my single games (of course because of the low level), but I've never had a dominition or conquest game since I'm no good at fighting, and all my wars are badly timed (I only go to war when I really have to).

    And in addition, in BtS I've never had an earlier Space win than 1920s, I've mostly launched sometime in between the 1960s-2000s, so I'm really looking foreward to this one.
     

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