Orion's Home School 3: Nobles Learning Culture

[Deriem]

Izzy and Monty? My wish is granted! Man, this is going to turn out to be a fun game, bwhahahaha. Mega shrine, fanatical holy wars, and a land-grabbing maniac... oh what great possibilities for the future!

It's good to see another early rush. Seriously, I wonder where you'd have ended up without it... oh well, more speculation for my overactive imagination. But perhaps you could get Izzy and Monty under your religious thumb. In my experience, they make very good lapdogs. Of course, Monty is higher priority due to the proximity.

Oh, and thanks for making a third Home School. It's really starting to pay off, as I just won my first military victory. Dom on a small Pangaea map, with 7(!) AIs. It was the early stuff that helped me, as I did a very early worker grab, and three rushes (is that even possible?). Not only did I more properly specialise cities, but I actually used some good ol' human military tactics to win the last war against a militarily par AI. Thanks, and good luck with the game!

 

[Killroyan]

Getting a great prophet city is great. Shrine do increase income, help spread the religion and also produce culture. In my last culture games I had about 5 GProphets and settled them all for shrines. I was able to run 100% science all game since I kept spreading the religions like mad. This will give you a huge advantage. You could also bulb theology with them to get the AP up and the hammer bonus on the buildings. I normally get 1 city for great prophets, 1 city for great engineers/great scientist and 1 city to produce Great artists.

Nice rush on the dutch btw. Having these cities up already is huge. And red dot is just plain yum. This is going to be a good game. However get a missionary over to Monty asap. Better have a religious nutcase as a friend then as an enemy

 

[eewallace]

Wow. Looks like you are going to need some serious diplomacy in this game. Are you going for the AP? (I would think it would be useful in case you need to start or stop any wars.)

Definitely you should get a religion over to Monty right away. I've had somewhat better luck with him than with Isabella, so I suspect that befriending him and getting him to take her out is a good idea.

 

[Daedal]

Yay another Home School thread! Despite wanting a peaceful game, it's interesting that you started with a rush on your neighbor. He was very close, but that rush seemed a bit... rushed? It's a moot point now, but what would you have done if your initial stack had wiped out without taking out his defending archers? A prolonged initial war? Pillage and wait for reinforcements (against lots of promoted defenders)? Sue for peace and try again later? Whenever I try to pull something like this off I never get results like you just did... I think my RNG must be broken because I've never won a battle at 20% odds and I can't imagine winning two in one rush.

Regarding settling artists vs culture bomb, if I'm looking purely at the cultural points (not using a culture bomb to flip neighbor cities) it's an easy calculation: multiply the number of turns to your expected culture win by 12 (the culture per turn of a settled artist on epic). Is that higher than what you get for a culture bomb? If so, settle. Otherwise create the great work.

Looks like it's going to be an interesting game if the rest of it is played out peacefully. You've already got a huge advantage, having annexed another civ so early, but your neighbors are not terribly friendly. I can't wait to see how you swing the diplomatic relations to make this work in your favor.

 

[Orion071]

It's good to see another early rush. Seriously, I wonder where you'd have ended up without it... oh well, more speculation for my overactive imagination. But perhaps you could get Izzy and Monty under your religious thumb. In my experience, they make very good lapdogs. Of course, Monty is higher priority due to the proximity.

Yay another Home School thread! Despite wanting a peaceful game, it's interesting that you started with a rush on your neighbor. He was very close, but that rush seemed a bit... rushed? It's a moot point now, but what would you have done if your initial stack had wiped out without taking out his defending archers? A prolonged initial war? Pillage and wait for reinforcements (against lots of promoted defenders)? Sue for peace and try again later? Whenever I try to pull something like this off I never get results like you just did... I think my RNG must be broken because I've never won a battle at 20% odds and I can't imagine winning two in one rush.

I needed to rush Willem. Just look at the territory around me. Brown dot is a decent enough city, but the northern cities are completely in the jungle and the area between Willem and myself is total junk. I could have probably achieved the required 9 cities, but most of them would have been terrible and I'm not sure if I could have pulled it off.

Make no mistake, my rush was a strategy disaster. The only thing I did right was to prevent Willem from hooking up his Copper. The rest was pure luck. If my first 2 attacks hadn't been so successful then I would have aborted the attack right then. I wouldn't have needlessly sacrificed my entire stack. This rest of my group would have pillaged the entire BFC and kept him from improving until I could get a proper stack. It would have taken much longer, but it still would have worked.

Even at the very end, when it was my 1 Axeman vs. his 1 Archer, I had 3 more Axemen that could have been there 5 turns later. Willem would have still only had his 1 Archer defending. Amsterdam was at 1 population so he couldn't whip anymore and he had no more improved tiles. I still would have taken the city eventually.

My main problem was a lack of speed. I declared on turn 94, but didn't assault Amsterdam until turn 102. Those 8 turns gave him time to whip 3 defenders. Unacceptable. When you declare war, have a stack ready and move in quickly. Don't give him time to prepare. Attacking 4 turns earlier with only 6 units against 3 defenders is a better ratio than 8 attackers and 5 defenders.

 

[dragomaster]

I can't understand wy you didn't use more Quechua's, they ar cheep and awsom against archers. you could have taken Amsterdam before he built Utreecht.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I love your Home School. I just joined an SG: Try-1 The Newbies! I wanted to know how you attach your photos.

 

[Levgre]

"Will you settle early Artists, or always culture bomb? When might the cut off point in turns be, if there is one, to make that decision? (Ie, 200 turns from projected win= settle, while 100 turns away= culture bomb.) Or is that the wrong way to think about it?"

How much is a culture bomb? 4000 normal 6000 epic?
Great artist gives 14 culture per turn.

14 per turn would take 280 turns normal, 470 epic.
If you average 100% added culture over the game(0-100% early, 100-400% late), cut that in half to 140 turns being left for normal, 235 for epic.
If you can average 200% from the great artist(hermitage city), its 95 for normal and 142 for epic.

Add extra science for representation, 3 extra gold, and Sistine Chapel(additional +2 culture), and the GA has more value.

 

[Orion071]

I can't understand wy you didn't use more Quechua's, they ar cheep and awsom against archers. you could have taken Amsterdam before he built Utreecht.

You're right, a horde of Quechuas would have been just as good if not better. I'm not used to doing a Quechua rush and defaulted to the standard Axe. Well, this is a Culture game, don't come here looking for war tactics.

Round 2 tonight! And with even more risky and questionable tactics!

 

[eewallace]

In honor of this thread, I've started my own cultural game as Huayna Capac. But I can tell you already mine's going to be easier--I've got stone beside my second city!

 

[Levgre]

You're right, a horde of Quechuas would have been just as good if not better. I'm not used to doing a Quechua rush and defaulted to the standard Axe. Well, this is a Culture game, don't come here looking for war tactics.

Round 2 tonight! And with even more risky and questionable tactics!

There is the drawback that one Dutch axemen could have stopped all your quechas. And quechas are still weaker against archers than axemen.

But yeah, with a very quick quecha rush you could've stopped him from getting that copper for sure.

 

[Roxlimn]

Having done several Quechua rushes myself, I'll add my input here. Quechuas are cheap enough that amassing a sizable stack of them would have taken almost no time. Instead of 3 Axes and 3 Quechuas, you could have had 9 Quechuas. That kind of mass that early with the bonus against Archers is just undeniable. Would've been faster, and would've used less resources. Definitely, you wouldn't have had to face as many archers, and Amsterdam would've been much more productive (maybe a size 2 or 3 city).

Not to knock you. Just something for the Nobles.

 

[Orion071]

Round 2 (1125 BC - 115 AD)

After my risky and ultimately lucky assualt on Willem, I'm going to press my luck even more. I'm going to stop production on the Oracle until I can complete a Civil Service slingshot. This was a common occurance in previous versions of Civ IV, but BtS included a nerf. Now, in addition to Code of Laws, Civil Service requires Mathematics as well. I would never attempt this without the research power of my Gold mine and the Financial trait. Normally CoL and Math take too long and the Oracle is gone, but my previous game showed that the Oracle might stick around long enough for me to still get it. Certainly Stonehenge lasted far longer than I though it would.

The benefits of the CS slingshot are practically off the charts. Not only do you get a very expensive tech very early, but you get to wield the power of Bureaucracy far before anyone else. As strong as my capital is right now, with Bureaucracy... just wow. I think it would cut 50-100 turns off of my winning time.

If this doesn't work, and I lose the Oracle, who cares? All I lose is free Metal Casting and a couple of Great Prophet points. Someone else will have an extra tech for me to get in a trade.

I've completed this slingshot on Prince, but I doubt it could be done on Monarch with an unlikely set of circumstances. (no doubt now people will tell their stories of how they did it on Emperor) So if you want to try this and it doesn't work in your game, don't say I didn't warn you first.

Turn 113: OK, so I need maximum science to speed my way through CoL and Math. Cuzco is working on a Library for even more research power. Tiwanaku puts the Oracle on hold to put out another Worker. I need a few more Cottages.

Turn 116: Utrecht comes out of revolt and starts on a Terrace. It's already asking to join the Aztec empire.

Turn 118: Cuzco finishes the Library and I start on a Settler for Red dot. I start working a few more Cottages in Tiwankau.

Turn 119: A few civs are will to swing a deal for Iron Working now. So I dial one up and swing this trade:



Sury was the only one willing to trade Iron Working without me giving up Alphabet. I don't want Alphabet being traded around the AI's. The longer they go without Alphabet, the less trading they can do. I tried to get the slightly more expensive Archery instead of Fishing, but he wouldn't do it.

There is 4 deposits of Iron around, but only 1 of them in the BFC of my cities or even a future planned city. It's in the BFC of Black dot. That will be a nice city with Cows, 2 Gems and Iron.

I didn't want Monty to feel left out, so I give him Pottery for Archery.

Turn 122: Code of Laws is done and Amsterdam becomes the Confucian Holy City. Mathematics will be done in 7 more turns, but that's with Tiwanaku working all Cottages. If I do that, I can't finish the Oracle there that quickly. I'll have to find a happy medium.

There's some very bad news. Monty converts to Buddhism. That means Izzy got to him first. I'm not ready to start my own conversion campaign just yet, so I'd better get my defenses ready instead. Amsterdam works on a Barracks.

A Barbarian city has popped up by Brown dot on my map, but it is 1 space south. Sigh. I guess Barbarians can't read maps.

Pacal has placed a city very close to my capital and it will interfere with White dot. His city is placed to grab the Pigs, 2 Spices and the newly-arrived Iron. My capital will cover this city in 2 more border pops, so I suspect that it will eventually flip to me if I leave it alone.

Turn 124: My Settler is done and heads to Red dot. Barbaians are coming out of the southern fog, so Cuzco needs to build some more defenders.

Turn 128: 3 Barbarian Warriors converge on Tiwanaku. It needs to whip an Axeman to defend itself. I need to chop a Forest to keep the Oracle on pace with Math. Both will be done in 2 turns.

Turn 129: I settle Red dot as Machu Picchu:



I won't be able to develop this city as quickly as I'd like, because all of my Workers are around Tiwanaku. They'll get to it soon enough.

Turn 130: Ah, the sweet smell of victory:



This of course will just be huge for me. Now the necessary civics swap:



I go into Bureaucracy and Organized Religion at the same time. With only 1 Jewish city, I didn't think I needed OR before now. But a high priority will be placed on Jewish Missionaries so I can convert my cities and my neighbors.

Turn 132: Amsterdam finishes the Barracks and will start making troops. Tiwanaku is a science city that needs a Library. Cuzco will make a few more Archers and Axemen and then continue making Settlers.

Now that I'm out of the revolution, Aesthetics is next on the way to Literature and the Great Library. The Parthenon is another nice wonder for me. My cities may be going a little wonder crazy for a while.

Turn 137: My first Missionary is done. He'll go to Cuzco so I can make them there as well.

Turn 138: Cuzco converts and begins its own Missionary. My Workers have hooked up one of the Ivory tiles at Red dot and happiness abounds.

Turn 145: A Missionary fails in Amsterdam so I have to waste a second one there. Now Cuzco, Tiwanaku and Amsterdam are building Missionaries.

Aesthetics is done and Literature is next. I have a decent number of Axemen now, so after I convert Pacal and Monty it will be time to REX again.

Turn 146: Izzy is a busy bee. She's already converted Monty, Sury and now Joao. I think some of it was her doing and some was the fact she built the Buddhist Shrine. Even my new city of Machu Picchu is now Buddhist. You know what? I give up. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em:



Look at that. Everyone is Buddhist except Pacal. Well, the world is united under one religion, it will just be the one out of seven that I won't found! But you've got to roll with the punches and not everything always goes according to plan.

Turn 150: A Great Prophet is born in Tiwanaku. Izzy got a second one a little while ago. I'm worried about her lightbulbing Theology. She doesn't have Monotheism yet, but she'll probably get it soon. I have to make a quick detour through Meditation because no one will trade it to me.

Turn 151: That's better. Meditation is mine and that frees me up to do this:



Christianity is mine and it's founded in Utrecht. I go back to Literature.

Turn 153: Literature is done and I'm going to switch to Drama. That's early for Drama in a normal game, but I want Theatres and the ability to make Artist specialists without having to go into Caste System just yet.

A Settler is done and he heads to Black dot. A few more Settlers are in production.

I capture the Barbarian city south of Tiwanaku. It was 1S of Brown dot on my map, but it still claims all of the resources so I keep it. Hey, it saves me a Settler and I get a Worker out of it too.

Turn 155: Izzy asks for Alphabet. That's a bigger tech than I'd like to give, but Joao has it already. I say yes. She's Pleased with me now.

Pacal has Hinduism spread to one of his cities and he converts. Hmmm, maybe you should have thought that through, Pacal.

Ugh. Monty has enough on his hands right now. I've been checking up on him every few turns or so. For those that don't know, if you go to the trade screen, you can ask him to go to war with someone. If he's says "We have enough on our hands right now", that means he's gearing up to attack someone. Is it me? A few turns ago, he was willing to declare on Izzy, but I didn't have enough to give him. I check the power graph. Hmmm, I'm miles ahead of him in power right now. I can't see Izzy because I don't have enough EP's with her. Could it be her? I shift a few more units to Utrecht just in case.

Turn 160: Drama is done and Currency is next. A stupid Barbarian city is up near Black dot keeping me from settling there. I have a couple of Quechuas and an Archer in the area, but that won't be enough. I send an Axeman to help.

Still no movement from Monty. Pacal isn't really happy with me right now and he's right next door too. I'll need a bigger military.

Turn 161: Pacal knocks out one of the two Warriors in the Barbarian city. I send my 2 Quechuas up against the sole defender and win. I raze that city, but it allows me to build Ollantaytambo:



This will be a very nice city once it gets going.

Turn 166: Here's the far north city I said I had my eye on:



Yeah, Cows, Gold and some important Stone. A lot to like there. I've also put a city down on Pink dot. My economy is being stretched thin, but with Currency in next turn and some more Courthouses, I should be fine.

Turn 167: Currency is in. I sell off a few cheap religious techs to keep my science rate high. Metal Casting will be next.

Turn 169: I found Green dot. Now my economy is pretty bad, but I have the 10 cities that I was planning on.

Turn 171: Heh. Pacal sees the light and goes Buddhist. Wow, that's everyone. That Shrine must be bring in a mint.

Turn 174: Metal Casting is done. Everyone starts on double-speed Forges. Once I get the Gems online it's an extra +2 happy as well. My happiness cap still isn't where I want it to be so Monarchy is next.

Turn 180: When I'm 1 turn from Monarchy, I notice Izzy switching to Hereditary Rule. She and Joao both have it. I give Izzy Math for Monarchy and 120g. I switch into Hereditary Rule.

Music and the free Great Artist will be next.

Turn 181: I'm out of revolt. My happiness cap is much larger now and Music will be done in 9 turns.

I'm going to stop here. The REX phase of my game is over. Next, I'll be growing out my cities and building quite a few wonders. The Great Library, The Parthenon, heck, just about any one that hasn't been built yet. I'll have to be careful about the AP, though. Not all of my cities are Buddhist yet, and the last thing I need is Izzy building the thing and declaring victory. I bet if I built it, I could win right now. I won't do that since I want to win by culture.

There hasn't been a lot of culture building right now, but that's OK. 90% of the culture you generate to win the last comes in the last 100 turns. I've got lots of time. Once I start spamming wonders, I'll get my 3 cities up there fast enough.

Here's a shot of my Domestic Advisor:



You can see that my populations aren't very high (mostly because nearly every city just whipped a Forge), so I've got a lot of room to grow. Most everyone is working on the key infrastructure (Terrace, Courthouse, Forge, Library, Theatre). Soon I'll start spamming wonders.

Here's a shot of the known universe:



There's my 10 cities. I'll almost certainly build 1 more in the Tundra south of Utrecht to grab Fish, Silver and Marble. Monty and Pacal are close by, but everyone else is off to the west. I should only really have to worry about Monty and Pacal. Will Pacal attack me? I don't really know his tendicies. Monty still has enough on his hands right now, but he could be like that this whole game in our lovey-dovey Buddhist world.

Here's a shot of the tech screen:



Calendar would be nice. I have Silks, Dyes and Sugar in my territory right now. I may not get anyone to trade it to me if they decide to try to build the Mausoleum of Maussollos. You know I like that wonder. I may have to detour to there first.

Here's the save:

View attachment Huayna Capac AD-0115.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Krick19]

Interesting. If only Isabella was closer and you could get that shrine...

 

[uncarved block]

My guess is that Monty will go after Joao. (We can't see it on the global view, but there's Portugese territory just east of Machu Picchu.) Each of the AIs seems to have an ideal number of cities/territory they feel is their due, and right now Monty has four, maybe five cities-- definitely not enough to keep the Aztec at peace. I'd also expect Sury to declare war before too much longer, for much the same reason . . well, that, and he's been a crotchety ol' bastard in all of my games. If you could get he and Monty to fight each other, I doubt you'd have to worry about either for the rest of the game. Pacal looks to have enough land to keep him happy for now- about five cities, maybe six- but that could change quickly. He's an odd one to read. In one game, he voluntarily became a vassal, and then stuck with me through three wars, including Rome taking his capitol (which I then took, and gave right back.) And sometimes he's just a jerk.

So, no Markets? Or will they be coming along soon? In my experience, they've been one of the more important buildings in the Civ series, at least for the core cities.

Thanks for the encouragement. I was under the impression that you had to play the first 200 turns always with an eye toward a cultural win in order to have a chance. This looks a lot like what I've been pulling off when paying full attention. A Culture win may be in my future after all.

 

[Deriem]

Turn 180: When I'm 1 turn from Monarchy, I notice Izzy switching to Hereditary Rule. She and Joao both have it. I give Izzy Math for Monarchy and 120g. I switch into Hereditary Rule.

Unless I'm reading this wrong... why would you give Izzy math for something when you're one turn away from researching it yourself? The diplomatic benefit doesn't seem that great to me. Was it because of the gold, so you could keep researching?

I think Monty and Pacal will both stay down. With a universal religion, I doubt there are going to be many wars at all in this game. Maybe you should have put it on Agressive AI That would've been interesting...

Goodwork so far, keep it up. Can't wait for Round Three!

 

[Orion071]

So, no Markets? Or will they be coming along soon? In my experience, they've been one of the more important buildings in the Civ series, at least for the core cities.

Markets aren't all that important in Civ IV. The only give to a +25% increase to your gold. Your city has to be producing a decent amount of gold for it to have much use. If your science slider is up around 70-90%, then each city isn't producing enough gold to make the Market that useful early on. The Granary, Forge, Library, Theatre and Courthouse are all far more important.

Now if I had a Shrine like Izzy's that was pumping out the gold, well then a Market would be very nice for that city.

Unless I'm reading this wrong... why would you give Izzy math for something when you're one turn away from researching it yourself? The diplomatic benefit doesn't seem that great to me. Was it because of the gold, so you could keep researching?

I had been selling off relatively minor techs like Math for a while now. She was one of the few without Math and 120 gold kept me researching at a deficit for a good bit longer.

 

[TRJS]

From that city shot I see you are yet to spread Budhism around. I assume the great religious spreading will being soon.

 

[Speedy36]

Quick question:

What's the difference between you and Monty in power?

I want to gauge the power difference I need between a very aggressive warlord and myself.

 

[Sorbicol]

Orion,

Just a quick note to say thank you for this thread, and your previous two! I've struggled with Civ IV for some reason, but even playing Warlords these threads have been a massive help, an while I'm waiting for BtS to turn up I think I'm finally getting comfortable play at Noble level. Hopefully I can progress to Prince once BtS is in my possession!

Just wanted to say thanks so much!