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OSG1 - Team One - Da n00bz

Discussion in 'Other Civ-Related Games' started by Sirian, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    This is a succession game for the ancient classic, Master of Orion, sponsored by Realms Beyond for our players. Thanks to CivFanatics for continuing to supply us with a home for all our succession game activities -- mostly Civ3 SG's, which I note have spread to the point where there's now a "Succession game of the month" starting up. Go SG play!

    So... this is the thread for Team One. Teams have been organized over at Realms Beyond, where we're just gearing up our Master of Orion activity. Anyone interested in MOO1 gaming is invited to pay RB a visit. We're running a tourney, much like the Epics for Civ3, and now we're (obviously) also expanding to MOO1 succession games.

    The players on this team's roster will take turns playing the game. Ten game turns per round. Each player reports their results and hands off to the next player. Fun for all ages. At least one other team will be playing this same map. Tune in to their thread to follow their results.

    If you are a member of another team, you should not be reading this thread unless your team has finished the game. Thanks. :)

    NOTE: The game involved here is the original Master of Orion. This thread has nothing to do with MOO3. RB participation with and interest in MOO3 died out almost a year ago.

    OK, here we go with this SG.


    Difficulty Level: Average
    Map Size: Large
    Race: Bulrathi
    Opponents: Five
    Color: Red
    Minimum Victory Level: Conquest

    (See the Imperium tournament rules at Realms Beyond Orion for more details about "victory level").


    Scenario: Let's pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :hammer:

    Ten turns per player. 24 hours Got It, up to 48 hours to play and post.


    Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

    Sirian
    Charis
    Jabah
    Justus II
    Isit
    Garath


    - Sirian
     
  2. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    The first task in a game of Master of Orion is to examine the playfield. Identify all stars within three parsecs of your homeworld. For this game, there are three such stars.



    The yellow star selected in the shot above, plus the two green stars, are the important stars for now. These are stars our initial colony ship can reach immediately.

    Generally, the best plan is to pick the star most likely to have a planet with a normal environment. Stars are rated by color. The color of the star determines its range of possibilities.

    Yellow
    Green
    Red
    White
    Blue
    Purple

    That's the color order from best to worst, for likelihood of good quality planets. Individually circumstances can defy probability, buck the trends, but generally, to open a game, it is best to choose the likeliest looking site and send your colony ship there first thing.

    This time we have a single yellow planet. That is clearly the most likely to have a habitable planet, and if it does, the most likely to have a larger planet. (Bigger is better).

    In a few circumstances, other concerns might override star color. Or, if there are more than one of the best available color type in range, you have to choose between them. In these cases, you should look at the other stars and weigh additional factors, but I'm not going to go over all of that now.

    So the first command is to send the colony ship to the yellow star, and then to send the scouts to the two green stars. We want to scout those green stars in case there turns out not to be a habitable world at the yellow star. We'd want to know to which green star (if any) to then redirect our colony ship.


    Now it is possible to build more scout ships immediately, but I tend not to do that except maybe on a small map. So I will let the homeworld build more factories while we wait for the ships to travel.

    Click next turn, next turn, next turn. Our colony ship arrives at Gion.



    That's good news! :band: Not only a habitable world, but a large one.

    I have to decide immediately whether to settle. If I pass up the chance, so I can see what the scouts report back, I won't get another chance to settle at Gion for a full turn. You can only settle during the events phase, "between turns". Well, this size 80 planet is plenty good enough, so I order the ship to settle.

    Colony ships don't always go first. Rather, the stars are (mostly) numbered from left to right in rows, top to bottom. The game handles events at each numbered star in turn, so stars with lower ID numbers (as far as the game is concerned) are handled first. This usually means ones closer to the top of the map go first. On some maps you get lucky and can read scout reports before deciding whether to settle immediately, other maps not.

    So here are the scout reports, from the same turn.



    A hostile environment. Not the best news, but in this case not bad news.



    A second habitable planet. Smaller than the size 80, so the local terrain has played out according to probability, this time, and we have been rewarded for going straight to the yellow star. That doesn't always happen, but you either play the probabilities and come out ahead most of the time, or you play hunches and take your chances.


    Always remember that immediately after your first colony ship settles, you are relieved of a significant maintenance cost on that ship. This tends to be worth TWO ticks on the ecology slider. That is, once the money that was maintaining that pricey ship is freed up, your total available spending goes up. Yet the cost of cleaning up after your factories has not gone up. The game has not adjusted your spending sliders at the homeworld, though. The same number of ticks are allocated to ecology after the colony ship is gone as were before it was gone. Only now, each tick is worth more (per tick) than before, so you need fewer total ticks into ecology to do the waste cleanup.

    Short version: you can reduce Eco slider spending by two ticks! I move those from Eco to Industrial to build more factories. The Eco slider still says Clean, which is what we want.


    Since we're playing on Average, our homeworld started with 50m colonists. We're ready to send some to Gion. (On higher difficulty, you start with 40m and won't be immediately ready to send colonists). In this case, we have 58m, and it would be ideal to send 8, leaving the homeworld at 50m, or exactly half full, which is where population growth is the fastest. However, in this case I'm only going to send 7m, and let me explain why.



    While it is best for pop growth to send 8m, there isn't a huge difference between being at 50% full or 51% full. However, if I send 8m, the Eco slider changes to say Waste, and I would have to add a tick to do all the cleanup. If I send only 7m, the Eco slider does not change to say Waste. I can do all the cleanup without adding a tick.

    So we have a choice. We can have our cake OR we can eat it, but not both. We can have the absolute best pop growth rate for the next turn, but we spend a whole extra tick on waste cleanup. Or we can spend the minimum possible on waste cleanup and send one less colonist on this turn. The pop growth difference is smaller than the Eco spending difference. Thus I keep one colonist behind to save a tick on waste. That's one extra tick applied to factory construction NOW when it counts more.



    Or, in this case, one extra Scout 2 ship produced next turn.

    (If you don't know what a Scout 2 ship is, you might want to read My MOO1 Tutorial to learn about how to play this game or read my generic advice. I talk about Scout 2 ships there, along with a lot of other basics that I don't intend to regurgitate here).

    Checking all stars within six parsecs of our initial two colonies, I count eleven, in addition to the four we've already scouted. So we need at least eleven Scout 2 ships to send one to each star. We will get five on this turn.

    Having sent transports to Gion, scrapped all the default ship designs and built our own Scout 2 and Colony designs, and ordered up a round of Scout 2's, we're done on this turn. Next turn:



    We have 54m colonists. If I send 4m, the Eco slider again says Waste, so I send 3m instead. Continuing to build scouts, we will have six more this turn. That would be eleven, the exact number we need. I order our Scout 2 ships, one apiece, to scout some of the stars. I select coreward stars first. Rimward stars will be less likely to be in reach of our rivals, so those wait until next turn.



    We have produced six more scouts. That's all we need for now, so I change spending back to Industrial for factory construction. I send out the rest of the scouts.

    We still need to send more colonists to Gion. My usual rule of thumb is to send more each turn, keeping the homeworld at half, and stopping when the second colony reaches about one third of its maximum. That being a large planet, size 80, it takes more from the homeworld to reach that target than a smaller planet would.

    However, this time when I try to send colonists (we have 54 again) I find that sending more than 1m changes the Eco slider to say Waste. Well, sending 1m just won't do. So I add a tick to the Eco slider and look to see what the maximum number is that I can send before it changes (with that added tick) to say Waste again. I find that I can send 9m at the new setting before I would need to add a second extra tick to complete the cleanup.

    I go ahead and send the 9m! :eek:

    Why, you ask? Won't that cause the homeworld to fall below the half-full point and hurt pop growth? Yes, it will. But in this case, the homeworld's loss would be the second colony's gain. That is, we DO lose a tiny bit of pop growth on homeworld by doing this, but that is countered by gaining pop growth rate at the new colony a bit sooner. I can send three each turn for three turns, or I can send nine right now and minimize overspending on cleanup for this turn. I go ahead and send the nine. Homeworld will be back to half full in a couple of turns, and those were going to be shipped offworld anyway, so the homeworld doesn't really lose much. We're talking 0.5 BC per turn for each colonist removed, so figure a total of 3 BC for six extra colonists missing one turn, and 1.5 BC for three missing another turn. One tick on the Eco slider is worth several BC, so really, homeworld breaks even but second colony gets a tiny boost. Make sense?

    These kinds of small things are not really crucial. Some may even be debatable, and I don't always bother. In the long run, a few BC here or there, even in the very beginning, won't matter. The opening is a good time to learn about small details, though, to help get players thinking about what it means to spend here or spend there, and what it means to speed growth curve here, or slow it there, or make a tradeoff on this vs that.
     
  3. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    Pennsylvania, USA
    With our scouts now built, and homeworld waiting to regrow to half-full before any more colonists would be sent out, there's nothing to do. From 2305AD to 2308, I click Next Turn, next turn, next turn. Our Scout 2 ships are fanning out nicely.



    Gion is nearing one-third full, which it will reach when it has 27m, and it's nearly there now. I wouldn't have to send any more, as it is now up and running, but I decide to go ahead and send 3m more anyway, and those will be the last. No more being sent off the homeworld, possibly ever again. (We'll see).

    As you can see, the homeworld is half full, still. Now it will start to grow. There are already more factories than population.

    If we want to max the homeworld before moving on to research and colony ship construction, the way I would do it is to keep going with factories at max rate. When factories get into the 160-165 range, it will take only three, maybe three and a half turns to max them out from there. That would be the moment to send colonists from Gion back to Ursa. Whatever Ursa's got at that point, probably about 80m or thereabouts, its growth will be slowing as it moves away from the fat part of the growth curve and into the narrow, marginal region. It would take a while to grow those.

    You have to remember the transit time from Gion back to Ursa, though. That's three turns. Figure Ursa may grow at up to 2m per turn. You don't want to waste people by sending too many. So figure 2m per turn self-growth at Ursa, that would be 6m. So if Ursa were at, say, 82m when you get to 165 factories, and figure to add 6m more by the time any arrive from Gion, that would be 88m. Safe to send 12m from Gion, and have them arrive right at or around the time the homeworld is maxing factories. You'd come close to maxing pop and industry at the same time, and the homeworld would be ready to rock and roll on colony ship building at the best possible rate, while the second colony could start research.

    That would be a standard opening for me. A few things could change it. Up to that point, no research has been done. Is it worthwhile to research anything before finishing off factories? Perhaps. +10 Terraforming might be worth grabbing sooner, if available, especially if your second colony is small. Industrial Tech 9, maybe, particularly for the Meklars. Research costs are tied to difficulty level, so for someone like me who plays mostly on Impossible, doing research before maxing factories on the homeworld is less attractive. Here on Average might be another story. I suppose one question to ask is whether we want to do what works best at this level, or to pursue what I consider sound techniques that hold up on higher levels.

    The Silicoids would be the one race for which this opening does not function. They require a whole different approach. We'll cross that bridge another time.

    And of course, our rivals may not cooperate. If somebody shows up with colony ships trying to settle worlds we'd like to grab, we might want to consider building a few ships to man a blockade, in which case the above plan would be tossed. But that too is a bridge we cannot yet cross.


    As I click through to 2309AD, our first Scout 2 reports back.



    Ultra Poor? That's not good. Plus that is a coreworld world, possibly in the line of fire of a neighbor who may lie in that direction. Ultra Poor worlds are enormously difficult to stand up and to defend. They can make life... interesting.

    Another scout report, more bad news.



    A mineral Poor planet. Not as bad as ultra poor. In fact, way better. That system may be in a rear guard spot, or maybe not. We'll have to see if there is anybody to our south.


    So. I have one more turn to go on my round. Let me do something I would NOT do in single player (solo or tournament). Let me drop a few BC to the tech slider and check our first-gen tech options for the three fields that contribute to early expansion.



    Need 3 BC per field to be sure to kick off research. (Try being ultra stingy and put only 1 BC, see where that gets you!) I want to check three fields, so I allocate 9BC.

    Here we go.



    That is good news. First-clean cleanup tech is present.



    Hmm. We're missing +10 Terraforming. Not good. But we have both of the other options, and most importantly for THIS map, we have Controlled Barren. Since we not only have a barren planet in reach, but it is bridging the way to a bunch of other stars, it is good that we can learn the tech quickly and grab it quickly. I choose Barren.

    The other tech is also great. Improved Eco? Waste cleanup, helps immensely with spurring growth.



    Aha. Range 4 tech, but not Range 5. This will afffect our expansion plans. Note the cost is only 270BC. The cost on Barren is the same. If we research both together, we could then swap and research both waste cleanup techs together. After learning all four of these techs, we'd gain an important early edge in economics, and then would want to open the other three fields and catch them up.

    One more scout arrives, and that completes the action on my round.



    Another habitable planet, beyond that barren planet. It really is good that we have Barren tech available.

    Now for some strategizing.
     
  4. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    Here you can see stars I've scouted. (Unscouted systems show as gray dots). Also shown is the location of the two poor planets.



    Now for the first MOO1 dotmap. :D



    A key to formulating expansion strategy is understanding PRECISELY which techs you need to be able to put a colony ship at each given star. You also have to find out which techs are missing from your tree, and in some cases you may learn that a gap will shift your strategy.

    I've used color in the above graphic to differentiate potential expansion moves. If anybody is colorblind and needs help with the graphic, let me know.

    The pink arrows represent an expansion path that could be done without having to learn any technology. That is, we could start building colony ships at any time and advance them along that route, each stop in turn. If either of the as-yet unexplored stars on the end of that route were hostile, that would halt the chain there.

    That is, the planets in the pink chain are each three parsecs or less from the previous link in the chain. We could go from Ursa (T) to the ocean planet (O). Only AFTER settling the (O) would we be able to grab the Mineral Poor arid planet (A). And only after settling there would the next one in the chain come into 3-parsec range.

    The yellow arrows indicate moves that could be made after we research Range 4 tech. With range 4 fuel cells, we could settle the poor arid planet without having to have settled the ocean planet first. Likewise, if the fourth planet in the pink chain should turn out to be hostile, we could jump from the ocean planet to the last planet in the pink chain with Range 4.

    The white arrows indicate moves we could make after learning Controlled Barren environment. We would have to go through the barren planet to make any of these moves. Settling the barren planet pulls that ultra poor arid planet into 3-parsec range. (You can check by asking a scout to move from one to another and looking at the ETA, then cancelling the order). We could then follow the rest of the white chain without having need of Range 4 tech. That is, we could do the entire white chain just by learning Controlled Barren.

    The orange chain, and all moves marked by orange arrows, would require BOTH Controlled Barren and Range 4 techs to be researched first.

    The red arrows point to planets six parsecs away, which we will not be able to grab until either learning Range 6 or better tech, or being able to put a Reserve Fuel Tank on a colony ship.


    Now suppose we didn't have access to controlled barren tech. We would be UNABLE to advance along either the white or orange lines. ALL of those moves would be impossible without acquiring either advanced range tech, or advanced environment tech. We might open the way with Controlled Tundra or Controlled Dead, if they are available, but that would take longer.

    Suppose we did not have Barren tech, but we did have Range 5 tech. If we had Range 5 tech, we could skip past the blockade of the barren planet by following moves marked with light blue arrows in the picture below.



    And of course, if all of this fails, if we had Range 4 tech and then a range drought in our tree until Range 7 or even Range 8 :eek: and we had an environment gap, with nothing available before Controlled Inferno, then we could still get around the problem by focusing on construction techs to miniaturize those Reserve Fuel Tanks to fit them onto a large class ship with a colony base.

    A key to deciding early research priorities is to look at the map, see where you can get without learning any tech at all, then see where else you can get to if you learn low level techs that are available to you. When there is only one propulsion option, you take it and make the best of it. But when you have both, you need to be clever about your choices. Should you research both? Should you grab Range 4 quickly and try to skip Range 5? Should you forget Range 4 because it won't help you much and skip right to Range 5? Or should you do both, grabbing 4 because it just can't wait, but then also doing 5 because that too is worthwhile?


    One thing we're not ready to do right away is research. I put spending back to factory construction. The pitstop on the tech slider was strictly to see what our options were so we could plan and I could do all this blabbing. :lol: Now that we know which techs are available, we need to build up the home planet quite a bit before we start to think about shifting our spending.

    In this game, we have seven scouts due to arrive early in next player's turn. There may be an artifacts world, which would change the situation. There may be AI's lurking. Anywhere we find AI's, especially AI colony ships, we need to pay attention and make some choices. Military to guard systems we want? Prioritizing techs? Should we research both Range and Barren, or focus on one and let the other wait? Should we build colony ships ASAP and follow the pink line, or get after those techs immediately so we can do the white or orange moves?

    These are all questions to be explored on next player's turn, even though the action will mostly involve pressing Next Turn and watching factories being built.

    Oh look who's up. Charis! My man. :hammer: Step right up and deliver us into the hands of our expansion strategy plan. You're in the hot seat now. Lead us on to glory.

    Da n00bz - President Charis's inauguration


    Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

    Sirian
    Charis <<<< UP NOW
    Jabah <<< On Deck
    Justus II
    Isit
    Garath


    - Sirian
     
  5. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Peoria, IL, USA
    Checking in, and :goodjob: on the 'dotmap'! I usually try to settle what I can, then prioritize the techs I need to get to more desirable planets, but I like the idea of "pathing" your expansion, and showing how different tech options really create distinct courses of action, allowing for a more informed (and more integrated) tech choice.

    One question, I know you did the tech 'preview' for the purposes of SG discussion, but do you normally only open a few fields of research, or all at once. I will sometimes invest a little to get an idea of my choices, but tend to do all 6 fields at once, but I see that that is somewhat wasteful, if I have no intentions of researching those areas early anyway. Is that why you only chose those 3 categories?
     
  6. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    Lions and tigers and BEARS, Oh my!! Not one to be scared at being
    WAY over his depth and even less scared of being thought a fool,
    Charis Ursus signed on for a task he had never undertaken. His grasp
    of the subtleties of the ways of Orion were smaller than any could imagine,
    and yet his comrades were both honorable and bright men, and he
    expected to learn much.

    Looking at the start, Charis Ursus tried to gauge what he would do
    first. Our starting area looks quite nice, and his guess is that two
    other races are going to have prime starts and two will have duds, with
    the last an average one. Who would they be though? Our opponents were
    Psilons (uh oh), Silicoids, Sakkra, Darloks and Alkari. The latter make
    for a game both with ground pounders and strong fighter pilots.

    The start does look good, with the three range-3 stars as pointed out by
    Sirian. My first impression would be to send the colony to the yellow right
    away and scout the two greens. The only reason I wouldn't is because there are
    no NEW stars opened up by a yellow colony, and I would see if a green one might
    support a good population and help open up new venues quickly.

    > We chose the yellow star immediately.
    Ok, at least my second choice is a good one, and straight yellow makes sense.
    A posteriori Gion turned out better. That was the most likely result, although
    Imri isn't bad either.

    How many colonists to send? Sirian likes to send enough to put homeworld at half,
    and chose one left due to micromanaging efficiency (I like that trick, btw).
    How many would I have sent? 25 (!) I'll explain the math in another post.

    Scout2 ships were ordered up, as expected, and he got the typical 5.
    I also like how you found out research options for the three best fields quickly.
    Before I read what you pick, let me see how I would have fared.
    Reduced Waste 80%, a fine tech, and no choice to make.
    Control Barren or Improved Eco? Interesting, we do have a barren in first ring.
    I have to look up what Improved Eco does. Eliminates waste for a fixed cost.
    While that's nice, quite nice, we're already heading for Reduced Waste. With a
    barren so close and other planets looking a little dudly, I favor Control Barren.
    > We chose Barren "since we not only have a barren planet in reach, but it is bridging
    the way to a bunch of other stars" Yay!
    Range 4 fuel cells is also a nice one, pretty expected.

    Again for practice, I consider a dotmap before looking at Sirians...
    I like Imra the ocean one soon and Klystrom after that. Yes, it's ultra poor
    but it's coreward and opens up more planets. Everything else depends on how the
    upcoming scouting goes. I look at Sirian's dotmap and see just how 'crude' my thinking
    is :p At least it makes complete sense, he's not speaking Greek.

    How do we stand? Ursus pop 56 factories 61 growth 3, pop 32 factories 4, growth 5
    Total net income (after clean eco) is 57+16 = 73.

    What would it look like if I sent 25 instead of 7 colonists way back when?
    Well, 24 after using the tick trick. I play through that and see, the results are:
    In 2310, Ursus is pop 54 fac 58 gro +2, Gion is 36/6/+3. Total income is 54+20 = 74.

    Just to compare apples to oranges I'm going to send BACK colonists to Ursus to equal
    what went went on in the 'real game', and compare in the year 2413. (AFTER my real turn was done!!)
    Sending 7 : U 65/79/+3 G 39/10/+2, Inc 70+23=93
    Sending 24: U 68/76/+7 G 38/13/+2, Inc 70+25=95 (after sending 5 pop BACK to Ursus)

    What's the difference? The total population is +2 higher, the total factories are
    the same, with a few more on the colony and a few less home, and income is +2 higher
    due to the pop being higher. That's with an extra send-back of 5 that I may not have
    actually done, just to make the comparison cleaner. So sending enough pop to put you
    closer to 34-40% of max, not 50% of max is optimal from a growth point of view. The
    downside... sending colonists off Ursus slowed down my Scout2 production, for a 1-2
    turn delay getting scouts out. That's not insignificant, but is situation dependent.
    If you need less scouts, send more colonists right away.

    OK, back to reality, and after all that verbiage, I'm ready to start my turn.
    Should I hope to find wonderful news that will require bold decisions, or non-descript
    planets found that won't rock the boat?! Fortune favors the bold!
    Note this report will be more detailed than most, as I'm looking for any comments
    on moves that I can get. I'll be short on screenshots as I don't know how to take them
    just yet. (Note later: I found I can do them with DOSBOX at the cost of jerky play)

    2310 - Hit return...

    2311 -
    - The gray NE star is Mu Delphi. Hostile Inferno 40.
    - The blue NW star is Incedius. Hostile Tundra 30. Double ouch.
    - The green E star is Argus. Ocean 70. That's better!
    - The red SE star is Gienah. *ARTIFACT* Minimal (better than hostile) max
    Free tech: Industrial Tech 8, factories cost 8. Cool!

    That DOES impact our plans. Gienah is 6 parsecs away but can make it via hop via
    the 'purple' path in the dotmap. I would have to think this planet takes priority,
    and sets our agenda for colonization. The only question is when. I think when Ursus can
    build the colony ships in 4-5 turns it will be time to go. No real need to push
    faster because we need four hops, or two hops with range 4 tech. Actually, that does
    suggest accelerating research toward range 4.

    Our rate to a colony ship now is 10 turns, so we're not even close. Factories it is!
    To get it down to 5 turns will take double the factories, and as we're now producing
    about 7 per year we could start to build colony ships in about 9-10 turns. It would
    be ideal if before year 14 we had the range 4 tech. Is that possible? At 270 RP
    with an average 1.4-1.5 of minimum, we would need to spend 27 RP per year to make it
    in time. How feasible is that? It would cut our factory production rate well over half.
    Nope, can't do it, too short sight. Voices ring in my head... "I urge you to think
    long term!" Max factories continues to be the path here.

    2312 -
    - Space combat!! At the north green star the Sakkras want some... they get some,
    as our unarmed scout chases off an unarmed colony ship. (gulp)
    - Second space combat! Just below there, a small yellow star, we find to have a
    planet and some ships in orbit. It's a green flagged star, the Sakkra.
    Planet name: SSSLA. 5 spectre, 5 scout, 1 fighter, 1 colony ship. Population 95
    Industry 51. 96? Must be their home world (?)

    We reached the north green star the same turn as the colony ship, since we now get
    the report that the system is called Iranha.

    I interpret the above that the Northern edge central yellow stars are home to Sakkra.
    In fact, the small yellow star (Sssla) is almost surely their capital. These guys are
    close, and we're going to be in conflict for worlds sooner rather than later. I think
    I'm glad I have the turn finding out this info rather than having to take it to them :p

    The fact that we chased off a colony ship and that we're in their first ring means
    that at some point, perhaps not long, the Sakkra will come back armed. Do I want to
    do something about that? No, not really. It pulls off too far away, it would slow our
    growth considerably, and we're good at ground combat, not ship combat.
    (Hmm, he sent his colony ship to an uninhabitable world? Go ahead, bring an escort!)

    - I send the retreated ship back to Klystron, where it will be ready to visit the next
    unexplored planet after we settle the ocean world.
    - The good news... if I understand the map and technology correctly, the Sakkra can *NOT*
    contend with any planets with us for quite some time, as the only border ones are
    uninhabitable and hostile (tundra). They'll need tundra and range 5 (4?) to reach us.
    - Continue to max shields. Note that to optimize overall pop/factory growth I should
    send more colonists from Ursus to Gion, but what I think I want to do is to emphacize
    not total growth right now but Ursus, to be able to crank on colony ships.
    In fact I *almost* want to pull back about 8 colonists from Gion, but as the population
    will sustain the factories through the first 2 colony ships, there's no advantage.

    2313 -
    - Scout red start up North - Spica Mineral Poor Jungle 80.
    - Next turn, as we stick to factories.

    2314 - Nothing.
    2315 -
    - No report IBT
    - Ursus: 70/102/+3 (+10 fact) net inc 84. Would take 7 years for a colony
    - Gion: 42/18/+2 (+3.7 fact) net inc 30.
    Optimal growth swap would be 7 colonists to Gion, but we stick with Ursus factory push.

    2316 - Nothing.
    2317 -
    - No report IBT
    - Ursus: 74/123/+2 (+12 fact) net inc 97. Would take 6 years for a colony
    - Gion: 49/26/+3 (+3.7 fact) net inc 37.
    In a few turns there will be more factories than we could man at Ursus, so I have
    a few choices: let that happen anyway, send over a few colonists, or start a colony.
    I think we can wait 1-2 more turns then crank out colony ships and our factories
    will be twice pop, while Gion has enough pop to transport some people.

    2318 - Nothing.
    2319 -
    - No report IBT
    - Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact) net inc 112. Would take 6 years for a colony
    - Gion: 53/36/+2 (+5.5 fact) net inc 44.
    Ursus is only 7 factories from max for pop, it's time for a ship. I go near max
    on ship, backing off two ticks keeping 6 turn ETA but building a few more factories.

    I've shifted Gion to research, as it will be sending troops soon, as as we would
    like range 4 tech sooner rather than later. Our next leader can throttle back if
    this isn't smart, but for now, I'm spending 2/3 propulsion and 1/3 planetology, 44 RPt.

    2320 - (no report IBT)
    - Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5) net inc 112.
    - Gion: 53/36/+2 (+5.5 fact, 45 RP) net inc 45.

    There we have it, some interesting analysis and decisions to make up front, and an
    uneventful remainder of the turn which is fine.

    Recommendation: send some troops from Gion to Ursus in 1 turns, so that you can continue
    them on along to the new colony, and save 3 turns in getting them there.
    I would send to Imra (max 55) 23 colonists, although 18 ish to drop Gion to 40 would work.
    After it's colonized, get a couple more scout2's and explore/blockade.

    Thoughts? Comments? Give me da prod! :hammer:

    Da Bears OSG1 2320 AD Save 4 -- To Imra!

    Charis
     
  7. Matrix

    Matrix Chieftain Retired Moderator

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    Where does this succession game come from all of a sudden? :confused: I like it though. :) (Not that I'll take a part of it. No time.)
     
  8. Bam-Bam

    Bam-Bam Hammerhead

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    Matrix,

    Some of us RB folks have been playing (some still playing) Galactic Civilizations for several months now. You've probably seen our succession games in the main "all other games" forum. Sirian stopped playing GalCiv about two months ago--the game having lost its legs for him. Suffice to say, its got some balance issues. Sirian had intended to run an RBCiv Epics style tourny for GalCiv, but the game has not had kind of patchs to balance the game that Civ3 has enjoyed.

    After that, it seems Sirian went back to his (and many of our) favorite Empire game. He's got a pretty good site with lots of info on MoO, including a resources on how to get the game, a tutuorial, some solo game reports, and lots more.

    He's also organized a tourney for MoO, the Imperia. The first game opened April 5 over at Realms Beyond Orion

    Calls for a succesion game rang out, and here we are.

    Oh yeah---and Good luck to Team One! You are in good hands. Excellent report to start out (as expected), Sirian.

    One thing, Charis--you are a math NUT! :lol: This is going to be lots of fun to watch.
     
  9. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Bam-bam, you have NO IDEA!! I spent several hours in Excel and deriving equations, taking a composite non-linear growth curve, taking the derivative with respect to time then another derivative with respect to transport size, to get a quadratic equation which I solved for the optimal transport size, *if* you want to maximize empire growth (as opposed to homeworld factory growth or some other pressing need).

    So why did I say I would consider sending 24 colonists instead of 7?
    For a homeworld at 57 of 100 and a colony of 2 of 80
    transport_optimal = ( 57*80 - 2*100 ) / (80 + 100) = 24.2 colonists.

    For the formula and a growth curve graph, see:
    Optimizing transport size

    I mention it there but reiterate here... the optimal transport size for maximizing empire growth is 24, but the correct amount to transport in our own game situation was probably 7, the number that Sirian sent - as it allowed just the right number of scout ships to be built over the next two turns. We ended up tying a Sakkra colony ship to one new star and chased him away. It ended up being inhospitable but if it was a great planet then a 1 turn delay in the scout would have lost it.

    I'll be curious to see if experienced players have any thoughts on this. I'm rather good at math but the rankest newbie at MOO! :p
    They key take-home point of that post was: don't stress out trying to stick too close to 50 of 100, anywhere from high 30's to low 60's is almost as good for growth on the sending planet, and will improve overall empire growth.

    Charis
     
  10. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Told ya this would be a math wiz's playpen. :p

    Can you believe I envisioned a scenario exactly like you describe, where a lightbulb goes *CLICK* and flips on, then an excited Charis starts poring over spreadsheets and equations? :lol: That is an image straight out of a vision I've imagined, subtitled "Charis's Paradise" :lol:

    I'm glad you decided to give this a spin. :) I hope that it continues to entertain you.


    You've aced one of the vectors. That's for sure. You grok the pop growth bell curve and how to maximize it. In fact, you've already refined it down to an exact science. Now for learning about all the other relevant vectors, and finding appropriate balance.

    The great thing about this game is that there are real tradeoffs to be made, real choices. Not phony choices, where Option A is always best and B C and D are just for show or for suckers (or variant scum).

    When it comes to early game economics, there is a fairly narrow range of "best" options. But as my Kitten Kaboodle game shows, there can be competing interests (and alternative choices) to pursuing max initial growth. And there is choice to make about how much strength to move from the homeworld to the second colony. Thus, even when you have fairly well mastered how to play the opening, you don't end up executing the same formula game after game. There is a wider variance in the terrain than we see in Civ, for instance. Different size planets at different ranges, some hostile, some with production bonuses or penalties attached. Different situations involving neighbors, and disputed territory, decisions about where and when to fight or blockade.


    Right. As I showed with micromanaging ticks on the Eco slider, there are other vectors to consider.

    There's also one other item... it costs money to build transports. Not much, but enough to deter flinging population all around in search of perfect returns on the growth curve. The cost seems to be about 0.5 BC per transport or thereabouts. You cannot send more than half of the current pop level, and if you have no factories built and you send the max, it may even take all of your current production. Perhaps the cost is closer to 1 BC per 3 transports. Plus you do lose the production of population points while they are in transit.

    In my experience, it's best not to "juggle" population. We could further expand on growth by flinging transports back and forth, but at ever-increasing costs to other priorities. Thus I tend to send X amount out from the homeworld to second colony (depends on size of second colony), and usually one single shipment back home to "top off the tank" of homeworld pop as factories are maxed.

    One thing I'm certain of. It's stronger to use some colonists from second colony to help homeworld max out ASAP. If you have homeworld spend on ecology to grow colonists, that costs nearly 20BC apiece. If you wait on building factories so that you never have idle factories, and you wait for homeworld to fill up on its own using growth, you will pass up a lot of turns of production.

    Here's the key factor in this concept: employed vs unemployed workers. At the time the homeworld is nearing, but not quite yet arrived at, max factories (max TOTAL factories, not max for current population), second colony is still standing up its factories. It's got way more people than jobs. If the colonists in question are left at the second colony, their production value is "unemployed". They produce 0.5 BC per million. If these same folks are moved back to the homeworld, AND (key point) homeworld continues to spend on factories, then there will be factories and jobs waiting for those colonists when they immigrate to the homeworld. You thus have a choice between leaving these folks on second colony as unemployed, or moving them back to the homeworld and fully employing them. Bigger bang for buck at the homeworld.

    Let's take Charis's numbers from his turn.

    Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact)
    Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5)

    Charis saw the "Max" reading in the Industrial slider and may have read too much into it. In the second turn there, he could have had up to ten more factories IN USE if they had been built. Even if not bringing some colonists back from the second colony at the end stage of homeworld ripening, it would be a good idea to try to keep factories at double current pop, even if that peels a turn off the colony ship he started.

    Let's extrapolate these numbers. These are approximations.

    Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact)
    Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5)
    Ursus: 82/152/+2 (+2 fact, ship in 4)
    Ursus: 84/154/+2 (+2 fact, ship in 3)
    Ursus: 86/156/+2 (+2.2 fact, ship in 2)
    Ursus: 87/158/+1 (+2.4 fact, ship in 1)
    Ursus: 89/161/+2 (+2.5 fact, ship built)

    Here's an approximation of what I would have done instead:

    Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact) - CONTINUE TO BUILD FACTORIES
    Ursus: 80/162/+2 (+13 fact) - SEND 14m from Gion back to Ursa!
    Ursus: 82/176/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
    Ursus: 84/190/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
    Ursus: 100/200/+2 AND 14 arrivals (+10 fact AND 40 BC to shipbuilding)
    Ursus: 100/200 - max shipbuilding, ship in 4
    Ursus: 100/200 - max shipbuilding, ship in 3

    The first ship comes out later, but the third and fourth will come out faster. The key is understanding that when the Industrial slider says Max, that doesn't mean it stops building factories. You can continue to build factories beyond what your CURRENT pop can use. It won't stop until you get to the maximum for your planet size and current factory controls tech level. This doesn't even cost you anything. Idle factories do not produce waste. The slider won't help you with that, though. You have to have an advanced understanding to manage past that point. For the homeworld, that will be 200, but in other situations you have to factor your Robotics Controls level with the planet size. You have to know what the true max value is for factories, and if necessary, you may have to borrow the tech slider to apportion out a precise number of BC for spending, once the Industrial slider changes over to the unhelpful "Max" reading and no longer lets you know how much you're adding or taking away when you move ticks. (In my tutorial, I showed how to "borrow" the tech slider to measure out BC for terraforming expenditure. The same principle applies to factory construction. If you know your exact cost per factory, based on Industrial Tech level and Robotics level, you can build exactly the number you want, if there is any important reason to build a specific number, no more no less).

    Example:

    Ursus: 84/190/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
    Ursus: 100/200/+2 AND 14 arrivals (+10 fact AND 40 BC to shipbuilding)

    When at 190 factories, only 10 more will fit. The game will not build beyond your true max value. Yet we have the dough to build up to 14 factories. If we spend all of that, the overrun will be taxed and socked away into reserves. If we'd rather not put that overrun into reserve, but spend it directly on a secondary priority, we can measure out the spending.

    Assuming 10 BC per factory (the initial cost, and ignoring the free tech we got from the artifacts planet), to build ten factories, we need to spend 100BC or more. So put enough ticks into the tech slider to meet that target, move the rest to shipbuilding, then move the precise amount measured from tech to industrial, and blam, just the right amount to max factories but with no waste, putting all the extra to our colony ship.


    Using one appropriately sized batch from second colony to top off the pop growth at homeworld, while homeworld beelines to 200 factories, is the fastest way I know of to fully stand up the homeworld, but still have a vibrant second colony. I believe the homeworld can be ramped up a bit faster by never bothering to send colonists to the second colony in the first place, or by sending fewer, but that speeds colony ship construction a little bit at the expense of not having a ramped up second colony to do research and to supply population to help speed all the later colonies.

    Of course, even this depends on the situation. Here we have a lot of stars we can grab. In situations where only one or two other stars are in range, it may be wiser to speed the output of the first or second colony ship, rather than trying to speed the fourth and fifth ones, because there aren't going to be fourth and fifth ones. Always choices to be made, never a pat answer that fits all situations.

    As experienced as I am and as balanced as my methods may be after years of refinement, I'm sure there's room to improve upon my performances, as well as slightly different emphasis and pursuit of different goals, which may be more successful in many situations. I'm looking forward to tournament results and comparisions and debates. There may be plenty I can learn from others, such as Charis's clinic on how to use math to actively determine the exact optimal value for maxing total pop growth.

    More to come...


    - Sirian
     
  11. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Continuing with my analysis...

    I would not recommend this move in general. What can wait, should wait. Until the first two worlds ramp up to where you want to do bona fide research, not just "check options", it should wait.

    The 9BC I did not put to a factory here means one less factory. One less factory now means 2BC in total income less per turn, and after adding one unit of waste that has to be cleaned, will either be 2BC or 1BC of net production lost on each subsequent turn, from here until production is maxed. Figure 1.5BC average loss per turn, after six turns that's a second factory we would have had, that now we won't! So this little "check" move has put a small crimp in our growth curve. That 9BC diverted now will translate into a net expenditure of quite a bit more, as time rolls on. Rather like charging an item to your credit card and making minimum payments, paying lots of extra fees by the time you pay it all off. If the purchase could have waited, interest charges could be saved.

    The question is what do we get for the tradeoff? By "checking" research options earlier, we DO find out what's on the table, but we also must COMMIT to making a selection in the areas where there are choices available (more than one tech option in that branch of the tree). That could be bad. I didn't wait for the rest of our scouts to report back in.

    I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS IN A TOURNEY GAME. That this is an SG is what changed the balance. Plus, I could see that Barren planet. That's a special case. Having a barren planet in the first potential expansion ring is uncommon. Having one that is a doorstop to most of our potential empire is even less common. Whether or not Controlled Barren is in the tree is directly relevant to our strategy. Even then, there's no point in checking too soon. Wait for all the initial scouts to report back, so we see the full range of our situation before committing to irreversible choices.


    Justus, all at once. Every time. And not until I'm ready to actually begin a commitment to research, or at least come to a crossroad where I need to determine whether to build colony ships first or research, or both.

    I scouted only three fields in this case to minimize the damage to our growth curve done by the premature tech check. This really was for SG purposes only, although the move might be relevant in other SG situations. I wouldn't recommend it for Imperial games.


    Your first impression was good. Selecting between multiple habitable worlds in initial range has little to do with "opening" anything. The colors on the arrows I used with the dotmap are not affected by choosing this planet first vs that one. Rather, it is technology that "opens" additional expansion paths.

    On large and huge maps, you ALWAYS want to go for the best available planet, if there are multiple valid choices to open. On small maps, as my Kitten Kaboodle game, position may trump planet strength. On medium maps, in select terrain layouts, position may matter, but usually grabbing the strongest planet would be better.

    The only thing gained by changing position of second colony from this one to that one is the difference in range factors for early blockading. Both long range ships (Scouts, LR Laser) and standard range ships (Fighters, Laser Ships) are affected, and if you might fight for and win a disputable system with one choice for second colony but not another, that may be important.

    Of course, playing a hunch or playing against probability to pursue position can pay off. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. :whipped: But in MOO, it is usually wiser not to press your luck. :lol:


    :lol: Yep. Yeppers. Appropo.


    Not necessarily. If that system has a hostile planet, that colony ship may have been parked there for a while. If the system has a normal environment, then definitely, we tied them there and if we had come later, the system would already have been settled. If the Sakkra have settled all habitables within their initial range, their colony ships could be sitting around waiting for new orders, which cannot come until they learn some tech.

    Sssla is the Sakkra homeworld.

    Sakkra - Sssla
    Psilons - Mentar
    Silicoids - Cryslon
    Darloks - Nazin
    Alkari - Altair


    We're not likely to contend with any aliens where a system is 3 or 4 parsecs from their homeworld and 7 or 8 away from ours. Better to cede ground that is not rightfully ours than to spend a lot of resources on blockades. Have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run. Never count your money when you're sittin at the table. There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done. :lol:

    Of course, if they don't stand up a whole lot of defenses, we might pull the AI's trick of sending transports. Like, at the first chance we get. Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :shotgun:


    Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

    Sirian
    Charis
    Jabah <<<<< UP NOW
    Justus II <<< On Deck
    Isit
    Garath


    - Sirian
     
  12. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    Whaou, long discussion here...

    I think I tend to agree with Sirian on maximizing the native planet vs the colony, but now I know that I also have to check exactly how many people I send vs changing the sliders ...

    I am not sure about research in a colony with industry far away from maximum (well need to check the map to see if barren is that urgent)

    Got it and will be playing right now, just have to make sure I understand the Moo saving system (thks I have no active game to lose) and check the compatibility of MWSnap with DOS windows.

    Back in a minute (or so)

    Jabah
     
  13. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    Foreign situation



    The Sakkras are in our NW, their homeworld (Sssla) is the yellow star in the nebula.
    Sssla is 6parsecs away from our colony Gion, 3 parsecs away from the empty system (Iranha) where we 'fought' their colony ship, but only 3parsecs (not4) away from the tundra (Incendius) where we have a scout. Incendious is 5parsecs away from our colony Gion and 4 parsecs away from the barren Trax.

    Denying the Sakkras first access to Incendius then colonisation might be difficult (out of normal range) but is probably needed if we want to have a 1 system border only (for a while).

    Scoutwise, all systems in range are explored, I move back the original scout around our colonies to:
    1. prevent Sakkras to scout them &
    2. scrap them (much later) without abandonning a system without scout.
    The 2 systems without scout now are the 2 just East of Ursa. I dare not remove the scout from the NE as we don't know for sure if the top NE yellow 8parsecs away is an AI homeworld (very unlikely)


    Back to our empire.

    Ursa : I want to maximize Ursa first before building ship (see Sirian post), so until further notice Ursa will be mainly on Industy (to MAX) and the rest on the ship construction.



    Gion : back to industry (stop research) until a more decent production.
    Pop wise Ursa is 80/100 (+2) and Gion is 56/80 (+3), send 10 back to Ursa.

    Press enter
    (Now I have a question, how do you find the year to check how long you have played?)

    IT nothing

    turn (1) MM Ursa to keep it MAX
    IT nothing

    turn (2) same
    IT nothing

    turn (3) transports arrive, need to go full industry on Ursa again
    IT nothing

    turn (4) MM Ursa to keep it MAX
    IT nothing

    turn (5) same (only 1 click on industry this time - pop 98/fact 196)
    IT nothing

    turn (6) same, Colony in 1t, keep ship at maximum to 'prebuild' the next
    IT - Year 2327 - Colony built and Ursa reach its Industry maximum. (Is it IT or turn7, probably the later)

    turn (7) send the colony to Imra (in 3t) and put the few research (set by AI) back to ship (next in 4t)
    IT nothing

    turn (8) Imra is a size 55 planet, I will send 25 colonists later from Ursa so in anticipation, I send 20 colonists now from Gion (pop 64/80) to Ursa (3t) to have it almost full the following turn.

    Gion can reduce industry production to MAX and restart some research.

    IT nothing
    turn (9) MM Gion to keep it MAX
    IT - Year 2329 - Colonize Imra
    turn 10 send 25 colonists from Ursa to Imra (in 3t)
    2 new systems are now in range, start some scout dancing to explore those 2 and keep scouts around away system.


    Notes for next leader.
    - Ursa should build a colony next turn, probably continu that until we reach the artifact world.
    - 25 colonists are leaving Ursa, don't cancel them otherwise the 20 coming from Gion will die.
    - Check Gion to MM production between industry & research.

    Jabah

    The SAVE
     
  14. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    I got it, but won't be able to play until this evening. (Easter Sunday with 8+ children in the house is not conducive to optimal moves!). Any suggestions on research priorities? I'm leaning to Barren, as it lets us open up the 'white arrow' planets before the Sakkra get to them.
     
  15. Isit

    Isit Chieftain

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    On the races screen click on the status button. The year is displayed at the top of the screen.
     
  16. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Quick tip: Isit is correct, I just wanted to add that it's almost instant if you type: 'r' then 's' no pause needed.

    As for tech, my uninitiated vote is for barren, although the path we've taken, I'm not sure now if that or range 4 would get us to the Artifact planet quicker.

    Charis
     
  17. Matrix

    Matrix Chieftain Retired Moderator

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    Thanks for the explanation, Bam-Bam. :)
     
  18. Garath

    Garath Sorceror

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    Checking in, having finally got the forum to play nice with my email account and let me create an account here. I'm back at University from tomorrow, so I should be able to play by the time my turn comes up. Don't expect any pictures in my first turn, but I'll try to figure out how to get them after that, once I have some more time. Equally, I've never actually had to upload a file to here, so I don't know offhand how to. I should be able to figure it out, though.

    Looking forward to it, Garath
     
  19. Bam-Bam

    Bam-Bam Hammerhead

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    Actually, I guessed correctly. I could hear the OCEM (Overdrive Charis Excel Math) all the way on the east coast. Charis' version of damnation--life without excel. "Honey, you can take away my games, but PLEASE don't take away my spreadsheet!" :lol:

    Seriously, I am just as tickled to see you jumping in with both feet. I anticipate that tourney results and SGs are going to be chock full of learning for all of us.
     
  20. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    A few more comments

    I didn't change anything in research priority (in fact I didn't research a lot before the last turns).
    Range 4 is probaly not urgent as we can reach the artifact system with our range 3 tech with OK planet on the way (Ursa is building colonies in 4/5t each)
    Barren is necessary to expand SW.
    --> barren is probably what we need first, on keep Ursa building Colony until we reach the Artifact world then switch it to research (as opposed as have Ursa doing research on its own first)

    Jabah
     

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