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OT Split - One Year On

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Silurian, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    The system you describe would almost certainly be far more burdensome for mods than the current one, because almost every infraction would be likely to go through the full infraction/ban review rigmarole (which generally includes lengthy PM correspondence that can easily take multiple hours per incident), which is a relative rarity at the moment.

    I don't like the different speed limit analogy, because the point of the permanent point system, or different punishments, is not to apply a different standard to different users. It's to take into account infraction history in sentencing. If you have been caught speeding over 100 times in the past, there's a good chance you'll be imprisoned if caught again. If it's only your first offence, or if you've only been ticketed for low-range speeding a couple of times, it's just going to be a fine. Flexible sentencing options as opposed to mandatory minimums are quite helpful for moderators, and for users, the vast majority of whom are never subject to any actual punishment (i.e. a ban).

    It's worth clarifying that when a user on the permanent point program receives their final infraction, they are not being permanently banned for that one infraction. They are being permanently banned for the 18 permanent points that came before it, and for all the trouble caused before being placed on the program. Similarly, when someone hits the eight point threshold, they aren't being banned for the one point that got them there, but rather for the whole of their behaviour that was resulted in eight unexpired points. Changing to a system whereby infractions always carried bans would be a departure from this system, under which, again, the vast majority of members, including the vast majority of infracted users, are never subject to any actual punishment (i.e. a ban).
     
  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I can fix that!! ;)
     
  3. shadowplay

    shadowplay your ad here

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    This is my preference as well.
     
  4. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    AFAIK any infraction can be currently requested to be reviewed. As far as actual process is concerned there is no real change. Sure people dont generally contest infractions because they see them merely as a nuisance, not something to alter their behavior.

    Before you dismiss this, perhaps it would be a good thing for a such a review process so that there can be a more consistent moderation as well. I humbly submit to you that the lack of challenge from users on infractions hasnt help moderator consistency at all. That the simple acceptance of potentially questionable (or not) infractions is actually part of the problem, not the solution.

    The sword should cut both ways. Mods should give infractions that do indeed meet the criteria of specific infraction, and users should have a voice in appeal to challenge based on the merits.

    And yet its very hard to avoid such bias given the small size of our user base that posts daily given the simple fact that the infraction process is based on moderator opinion.

    I mean really, are you going to tell me that every infraction a moderator gives out is deserved?

    Maybe, but not permanently. :p Also you generally lose your license to drive after your third ticket in a short period of time - not to mention how much your car insurance rates go up.

    You also have the right to challenge each and every speeding ticket received, and can request evidence pertinent to the case. But in any case, thats what warnings would be for.

    If you dont post a lot, and know that 8 points gets you a ban, it's pretty easy to keep under that total. The point being, people dont really change their post behavior under that system, they simply mitigate it enough to avoid the ban.....which means nothing really changes. Bottom line that system isnt rehabilitive, its continuing to allow the behavior that most people are referring to in this thread.

    I've been here for 8 years, and many posters have been here even longer. Back when I first started posting, infracting and banning posters like Perfection or Fifty was apparently a right of passage for moderators, as if it were a expectation to occur......and posters that posted often, and engaged in quite a bit of argument got infracted far more than most (for good or ill) simply by virture of the number of their posts and sooner or later a mod would have the opinion that a particular post crossed their perceived threshold. However, it was just seen as more of a game (from my perception at least) than any real attempt to rehab or change a poster like Perfy or Fifty - that wasn't really going to happen anyway. And posters that really did cross the line and flagrantly harassed others, or expressed racial hatred or bigotry were simply dealth with accordingly and permabanned outright - and people didnt miss them at all. But if someone like Jolly today were to be perma-banned, i'm sure a signifcant number of posters would miss his posts.

    See? :goodjob:
     
  5. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    Oh it was a game alright. I kinda miss it to be honest. Trolling can be fun,
     
  6. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    I just wish permaponts were transferable to my DLs, though I suspect one of my DLs would be vindictive about it.
     
  7. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    On the whole, I actually like the level of moderation in the tavern with a few caveats.

    Not only is there very low traffic in the Chamber but at times the mods seem to sabotage it's reason for existence. I've seen a few times where the mods have come in and moved a thread from the Chamber to the Tavern because of bad posters. Essentially they punish everyone for the actions of a few instead of punishing just the bad posters. Even if the bad posters include the OP, that doesn't mean a thread should be moved to the Tavern unless the OP has asked for it. I know that the Olive Branch thread had this happen. I realize that I was probably seen as a bad poster there but I should have been punished. Instead, everyone was punished and the thread was moved to the Tavern where it died as a troll thread. It's happened to other threads as well and when it does it completely undermines the point of the Chamber. It doesn't happen enough to be a major problem though, I just wanted to share that issue.

    I also don't see an appreciable difference in the quality of posts between the Chamber and the Tavern, there are just a lot less of them.

    And it doesn't even have to start with an immediate purge. I think mods need to clearly define what constitutes a problem poster and let posters know when they are meeting such criteria and that they need to change or face serious reprecussions. Currently certain posters are allowed to continue acting badly with only minor disruptions in the form of tempbans or infractions. Then they come right back and do the same thing that got them in trouble and everyone has to put up with it. I don't see how keeping them around and letting them off with slaps on the wrist is conducive to general discussions. It certainly isn't any more conducive than just banning problem posters would be.

    Oh and before someone says 'well a month or X long ban isn't a slap on the wrist', well if it isn't than why has it failed to change bad behavior?



    I agree here.
    Your point being? I'd say number of infractions isn't the only criteria that should be used and I'd ultimately leave the decision of what criteria to go with to the mods. But other than that you're appealing to your popularity here and that doesn't really prove anything iother than that you (and your posting style) is popular. If you are deemed a problem poster by whatever criteria the mods may come up with then yes you should change your behavior or be removed. The same for me and for everyone else.
    No kidding. Seriously bad posts are allowed to stay up for (sometimes) days before they are infracted because there are only a few active moderators.

    As opposed to continually infracting and warning certain users over the same issues?


    You act as if people are saying changes need to be made because of differences of opinion. That's not the problem; abusive, spammy and out of control behavior is the problem. Your desire to create a big tent has allowed truly disruptive, obnoxious personalities to drive posters from the tent you wish to create.

    I've been here a year and even I've noticed the steady stream of old-users leave. A few have returned, posted once or twice and then left. IdiotsOpposite came back and posted for a few weeks and then left whilst saying how bad the Tavern had gotten. Has there been any serious new posters to join in the year besides myself and ace99? Doesn't that say something that people join OT only to walk back out very quickly?


    I do like the relaxed forum of the Tavern, I just think that some guidelines have to be set for what constitutes a problem poster so that they are dealt with fairly and with some finality instead of simply letting them back in to repeat exactly what got them in trouble the last 5000 times.

    I don't know about this seeing as at times there are no mods in OT and really only 3-4 who do all the heavy lifting.

    Problem posters who derail every discussion with the same spam posts repeated infinitely or who use these forums purely to carry out personal vendettas are the issue I see with the forums. IMO they drive out lots of good posters and act to supress serious discussion. As for the goal - why set one? Why not just let the OT forums be off-topic? I don't really see a problem with the way all of the OT forums are set up with the exception that the Chamber is on life support and is sometimes undermined by the mods themselves (and that it really isn't more civil either).


    Banning shouldn't be a popularity contest, which is why I think JR's comments and discussion of him are out of line in this context. Further, just because someone is a popular target for 'permaban him!' posts doesn't mean there isn't merit to the accusation. This is why objective criteria should be set by the mods and stuck to.

    As for warnings - dude, even month long bans haven't stopped any one who has gotten them from carrying on as they were before. Warnings and tempbans are not enough if the goal is to both punish and change bad behavior.

    And yet there are certain topics (the ACW or libertarianism, to name two) that are basically off limits for serious discussion due to a few bad apples.

    I agree with Ziggy's response to this. Plus, there is a difference between low-hanging fruit and pure rotten fruit that gets spread around in every single thread problem posters post in. Yup, people respond to that when they shouldn't and part of the reason why people leave CFC never to return is because so many others participate in the derails and go for the rotten fruit. However, this whole problem has a root cause that isn't being sufficiently addressed: the bad posters. The people who drop the rotten fruit should be punished and if people responding to it are contributing to the problem they should be punished as well. But at the end of the day the only way to stop all of this is to get rid of the bad posters in a fair and equitable way, after multiple warnings and if they have met whatever criteria you all have spelled out for everyone. Getting rid of a bad apple doesn't imply schoolmarmism or a massive crackdown which is what you and BJ seem to think.



    Oh and if you all would get a working Ignore button, I'd be complaining about spam-posters much less as I could actually ignore them.

    As long as the low hanging fruit is Poland, Domen or terribad historical posts, then going after it is ok, right?

    Well put. :goodjob:

    And really, if people want to cookie cutter their arguments and reuse the same points, fine. But at some point subjecting everyone to the (exact, word-for-word) post for the 5000th time so that it can be trolled and countertrolled it the same way for the 5000th time is asinine. I'm not saying don't punish the trolls, but they are the symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.


    +1

    My take from illram and BirdJaguar's posts here have been essentially is that they think every issue that's been raised is our own faults essentially and with respect to BirdJaguar's frequent use of MNSHO that they aren't actually listening or considering our opinions.

    You'd have a point but for the fact that there are so few posts in the chamber that I personally don't start many threads there because they won't move. Factor in that the mods may come in and move a thread to the Tavern because of some misbehavors and the whole justification for the Chamber evaporates.
    Focus on dealing with those who cause the most problems and work out solutions. Even a permaban isn't the only course of corrective action; simply forbidding them from making certain kinds of posts (and punishing those who try and bait them) would help. But it's clear the current approach is an ineffectual bandaid.

    I also think the red diamond idea has some merit as it leaves the rest of the combined OT to Tavern moderation but allows (a few) threads to be more closely watched.

    Exactly!
    Really? I am not sure you're being serious here, I feel you're being purposely disengenuous to deflect the argument that's being made. There are certain topics, such as libertarian philosophy to name but one, that don't lead to anything but trolling. Then there are posters who bring up certain things completely out of place and use oft-repeated phrases who can stop any discussion in a heartbeat. I don't think this is a secret and at this point things have progressed so far that these posters need only post innocuously in a thread and they will be trolled in a discussion-derailing way as they physically can't stop themselves from responding in kind and the trollbaiters aren't even punished.

    Again with the popularity contest stuff. I'm not sure you've done it here but certainly some people tend to think that posters shouldn't be 'ganged up on' and targeted for permabanning because that can fall into popularity contest territory. Well so is bringing up JR. I don't see why anyone should be seen or treated differently; if they present a constant problem then they should be dealt with.

    For another thing, JR trolls and does his one-liner thing. Maybe that is a conversation stopper and he's clearly paid an infraction and ban price for it. But that's an entirely different matter than posting the exact same spam in every single thread to the point of collecting dedicated trollers who spend most of their energy trolling you everywhere you show up with the same trolls.

    I'm sorry that clear guidelines are difficult but honestly it can't be that hard so long as you are not trying to carve out exceptions (as you appear to be doing with JR's style of posting) and value consistency first and foremost.

    You are lenient, I think the Tavern on the whole is a fun place and I appreciate the overall moderation. I know I've said this multiple times already but the issues that cause the most headaches are very specific and will continue so long as they are either not addressed or are addressed the way they have been, which isn't working. What is required isn't some massive change to the entire moderation philosophy on CFC, just some targeted fixes.




    And yet tempbanning and infractions are an even worse solution as we have clear evidence that it doesn't work.

    Bad boy posters

    Again I ask why JollyRoger gets special consideration? Why not hold everyone to the same standards? In any case, he is being held to the same standards at the moment and has the bans and infractions to show for it. I like JR but seriously, if you are trying to justify not making changes based on his example (or any other particular poster) that is even worse than making changes solely to address a particular poster as at worst said changes will make those targeted posters suffer while doing nothing means we all suffer.

    I would also like to reiterate that JR does not present the same problems or issues that other problem posters do. He trolls and zings, but doesn't spam incessently and doesn't have a dedicated group of haters who follow him around and wreck every thread he's in. He also doesn't try and wreck every thread he's in or bring in completely off-topic garbage into every discussion. So it isn't even fair to equate him in this instance.


    The ignore function doesn't work so please don't bring that up again - it's completely useless and that is a known issue. I also see that you have essentially ignored Ziggy's post on this matter and I hope you don't do the same for myself.


    Quick question: did you have as many active moderators before the split as we do now? It's seems to me that that is a serious impedence to effective moderation: there simply isn't enough of you around and that would greatly contribute to the high workload.

    And yes, you all don't deal with the tricky stuff that much. At best you hand out tempbans and infractions and let serious issues fester.


    I can't say with certainty what the issues are that are driving down OT traffic but I think that enough people have complained about all of the issues I've raised in this mega-post that they warrant serious consideration and some plan of action should be taken. The current approach is to do nothing and that's not been so helpful, has it? Maybe I'm way off and other factors are to blame for the slump in OT but I haven't seen to many other issues that could lead to it.

    You can't ask everyone to ignore them and many people do have genuine points of contention to raise with them. So it's not fair to tell everyone 'hey, you may have a valid point but don't respond to this person because they are incapable of giving a serious, non-spam reply', which seems to be what you and others constantly suggest.

    And that's also ignoring the fact that some people will post regardless of the attention they get and even just one response is enough to trigger a flood of spam. You're setting an unrealistically high bar here.

    Oh and did I mention the ignore button doesn't work?


    The entire rest of the forum loses because you can't stop the entire forum from replying to them.
     
  8. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    :confused:

    You can list the number of serious arguments I've had with Domen in the past year on the fingers of one hand.

    And "terribad historical posts" aren't low-hanging fruit in and of themselves. They don't automatically cause [fecal] fights. If I have a reasonable expectation that I can change somebody's opinion about something or improve their understanding of something by posting context or corrections about history janx, then I post about it. If I don't, then I don't - maybe at most a driveby saying something like "this post is bad and you should feel bad", but that's it. Part of it's because I really hate engaging in post-by-post arguments. They're nerve-wracking as all hell. These days, if I've gotten three or four posts in - especially considering the size of my usual posts about something I care about - without any progress, I don't usually pursue it beyond that.

    It'd be a lot easier to aim that tu quoque at you, but I'm not interested in that. I'm just interested in a more congenial forum climate for people who don't want to have to wade through the same repetitive inane garbage in every freaking thread.
     
  9. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    That's rather the point as you have engaged him though not seriously.

    Hmm I should've added a smiley to that point as I was mostly making a tongue-in-cheek jab at you and trying to point out that we are all guilty of going for the low-hanging fruit. My fault for the bad assumption that if I just used the magic word Poland that you'd get I wasn't fully serious. :sad:

    Quite right I'm a prime suspect in engaging when I shouldn't and fully expect to have to change my behavior if the moderator approach to the problem changes. But for now the default approach allows myself and many others a lot of leeway to troll the hell out of people so we do. That doesn't mean it shouldn't change and that doesn't mean we shouldn't be held to account for it. I'd gladly give up posting RON PAUL FUN BUX if it meant some of the garbage got taken out of the forum.

    I do like to think that at least some of my replies to garbage posters are serious and not solely troll bait.
     
  10. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    I just revised my 4 poster purge list.
     
  11. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    What's so good about a thread that "moves"?
    More and more people come in to make (or repeat) inferior arguments, the whole thing is bothersome to read and the high traffic makes it way easier for individual tangents (that may be caused by good intentions or bad ones) way easier to derail the whole thing.

    On theads being moved: Threads should not be moved from the Chamber to the Tavern.
    If it's frivolous spam, close it. If it get's bogged down in tavernesque arguments, moderate it.
    That (and what i wrote in the other post) is essentially the deal the moderation offered with the devision. If individual mods don't live up to that, they - not the concept - are the problem. Changing the concept won't help in that case.
     
  12. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    @Hobbsyoyo: No, you're right, I can't expect everyone to live up to my high standards :smug:

    @metatron: I 100% agree that moderators shouldn't be lazy about moderating in the Chamber. Hand out infractions and commit to not moving potentially worthwhile threads to the Tavern. However, the actual number of threads moved to the tavern is really, really small, and I don't think this is the "problem" with the Chamber. The "problem" is the same as the problem more generally: people say they want real discussions, but then spend 90% of their time trolling and replying to turdposters. Instead of seeking out and generating discussion in the Chamber, they stay in the Tavern and have a pop at the low hanging fruit.
     
  13. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    I agree.
    Just saying, when threads get moved the counterfactual to aim for should not be that nothing bad had happened to those threads but to have the threads moderated rather than moved.
    And while it does happen rarely by now, in the months directly after the split the Chamber was a bit more populated - far away form Tavern levels but more than now - and frequently threads did have issues. And back then in the overwhelming majority of those cases these threads were not fixed by the moderation the mods implicitly (and to some extent explicitly) promised but by being either locked or moved or just moderated by Tavern standards.

    So in essence - apart from the delusion of the first month or two - there was never any reason to post in the Chamber except that it is less populated (which can be a valid reason).
    Any other reasons were - in essence - not maintained due to the mod staff's choices.
    For posting there we never actually recieved the anticipated moderation, but instead a higher chance of getting the threads we were writing in locked.
    Why should anyone sign up for that?

    The result is obvious and could have been anticipated: Serious debate of controversial issues does not happen in the Chamber. Cause for persueing that in the Chamber you only get added risks and no benefits.
    So the forum turned out as a nerdy subforum (focussing on politics, economics, foreign languages and cultures mostly), like the other nerdy subforums.
    It wasn't like that in the beginning. Then there was controversial debate... which was locked, moved or "moderated" by Tavern standards until everybody finally appreciated the futility...
     
  14. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Moved threads isn't a huge issue, it's only happened 3 or 4 times since I have been here (which was months after the split). However when you consider there are maybe 10 active threads in the chamber at any given time... And if I take what metatron says about thread locks to be true then yeah, the chamber does become pointless.
     
  15. rugbyLEAGUEfan

    rugbyLEAGUEfan Deity

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    I don't think I've ever let "chamber status" stop me from posting a one liner or flippant comment anyway and I've seen the same from others, often. Admittedly I'm not under the pump from the mods anyway so I guess I don't lose any sleep over whether I'm going to get infracted, but I'm not convinced the chamber is that chamberesque anyway.
     
  16. metatron

    metatron unperson

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    As i said: In the beginning it was somewhat more lively over there. It still fell way short of the Tavern. But there was, you know, activity.
    And some of that activity of course was on controversial topics and of course people got ito arguments.
    And back then the most common response - in my perception anyway - was to close the thread or move the thread to the Tavern or apply the same moderating standards as if the thread was in the Tavern, thus completely diminishing the point about having the Chamber in the first place.
     
  17. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Chamber's issue is traffic. Plain and simple.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Same here. Either it's that the moderation isn't strict enough in the Chamber, or that the moderators' definition of chamberesque just means that you can use even less naughty or offensive words there than usual.
     
  19. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Can we rename the Tavern to World's Smallest Fruitgarden?
     
  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I have no idea why you'd want to do that, but if we're going for colourful names, how about Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit?
     

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