OTR - JPetroski (Allies) vs. Prof Garfield (Axis)

[Prof. Garfield]

No news.

 

[JPetroski]

No news.

Every time you say this I cringe

We attack the railyard at St. Nazaire but can't destroy it. It was the only target in Brittany that appeared to have no cloud cover at the time.

3x U-Boats are destroyed at sea.

Two new aircraft carriers enter the Atlantic, determined to win the battle for control of the sea lanes.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

A Sunderland downed and a couple torpedo attacks against a convoy.

 

[JPetroski]

No news

 

[Prof. Garfield]

2 Convoys sunk and an A20 downed over the Atlantic.

It occurs to me that Photo Recon planes are extremely powerful in the Battle of the Atlantic. I can spot convoys fairly easily with their high movement, and don't really need the 200. Perhaps we should give the sub flag to convoys, and the spot subs flag to wolf packs and FW200s.

If you're interested, for convoys, I can turn off the unit flag that tells if a unit has moved, which should allow the convoy to recover hp even if it has moved. This might increase the convoy's chance to escape if it has been attacked.

 

[JPetroski]

Carrier operated Spitfires destroy a pesky 109 operating in the Celtic sea.

It occurs to me that Photo Recon planes are extremely powerful in the Battle of the Atlantic. I can spot convoys fairly easily with their high movement, and don't really need the 200. Perhaps we should give the sub flag to convoys, and the spot subs flag to wolf packs and FW200s.

You have a point - I'll make the switch. I don't really have a problem with you using recon planes to, well, recon I typically used mine to try and find bomber streams more than anything else.

If you're interested, for convoys, I can turn off the unit flag that tells if a unit has moved, which should allow the convoy to recover hp even if it has moved. This might increase the convoy's chance to escape if it has been attacked.

That might not be a bad idea - as it stands, anything attacked pretty much isn't going to arrive until mid to late in the scenario.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I think I downed a Spitfire. Not much else to report.

You have a point - I'll make the switch. I don't really have a problem with you using recon planes to, well, recon I typically used mine to try and find bomber streams more than anything else.

The recon planes will still be useful in the role, just not as useful, since they'll have to comb every square. I would justify it as it being easier to scout a stationary land target than to find, and report in a timely manner, the location of a convoy. More importantly for game purposes, it makes the FW200 much more useful for the role relative to photo-recon. The bomb isn't really worth the trouble of a dedicated and somewhat vulnerable (and expensive!) unit. It also means that the Germans need to research a tech to keep up the pressure in the Atlantic.

If you haven't realized, I know what turn your convoys arrive, so I can send a plane to scout for the convoy, and then send the subs after them.

That might not be a bad idea - as it stands, anything attacked pretty much isn't going to arrive until mid to late in the scenario.

This, and the Wilde Sau modification for the ME110 and ME410 is done. You might want to change the Wilde Sau message (the one when 'n' is pressed and the unit can't teleport) to reflect that 'u' is the key for wilde sau.

 

[JPetroski]

The port of Brest was attacked and destroyed. A few photo recon birds tripped the "a high altitude daylight raid is detected." One was destroyed, another was damaged. We might want to remove these aircraft from that (I think they're already removed from radar).

I wouldn't be opposed to giving Germany the Condor tech at the start of the game or perhaps making them less expensive. The Sunderlands are useful because they react to U-Boats, but not useful enough to research them.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

4 B17s downed, a couple Stirlings downed also, and a Beaufighter killed by rockets on the ground. Also engaged a task force with Stukas, but I really should have known that I didn't have enough to do serious damage.

Moving all these trains around makes me wonder if the occupation bonus for Germany is too large. There is really no downside to having enough troops stationed in France to get 6 trains per turn, maybe I could even get 7, but I haven't checked. Maybe this is just more evidence of how important the Battle of the Atlantic is, that the Allies must quickly secure their sea route and destroy ports, but Germany already has more cities to get factories, etc. I suppose the Allies also get fuel from their convoys, so the comparison of trains isn't perfect.

 

[JPetroski]

6x Me109
1x Fw190
5x Ju87

Shot down.

St. Nazaire port destroyed. Nantes is badly damaged.

By night, Wilhelmshaven attacked and 2x urban squares destroyed.

Event thoughts:

* I noticed that "Hide certain units in the combat report" (Esc) doesn't have a "next" button.

* Is it possible to reset the food on airfields each turn so they don't grow and we don't get the "required for growth" or "this is now in disorder" messages? There's not much benefit to them gaining size.

Moving all these trains around makes me wonder if the occupation bonus for Germany is too large. There is really no downside to having enough troops stationed in France to get 6 trains per turn, maybe I could even get 7, but I haven't checked. Maybe this is just more evidence of how important the Battle of the Atlantic is, that the Allies must quickly secure their sea route and destroy ports, but Germany already has more cities to get factories, etc. I suppose the Allies also get fuel from their convoys, so the comparison of trains isn't perfect.

I "think" the size of it is OK because I have a feeling that with the change that you can't build aircraft in France, the railyards are going to be much more significant targets. In my game with Gareth, he's knocked a few out and it is a problem. I suspect the German player will need to station many more aircraft near these than they might normally want to do, especially when they really want to bring forces back to Germany as the Allied buildup continues. Lyon is normally a backwater, but now it is near a vital chokepoint. You'll also need to keep forces near Lille, though it's going to be tough to keep that one operational against a determined adversary. We'll have to see how that plays out (I might need to extend the "railroad to nowhere" SE of Paris and link it up near Metz AF, and either swap Paris' RR Yard to the south or potentially even add Dijon or Nancy as cities, just so there are 3-4 routes out instead of 2).

Another consideration we might have is instead of having German army groups increase the spawn rate, we could have factories in France do this instead. I think you only start with a handful and probably aren't keen to build too many more within easy range of my attacks, but maybe if each one west of that gray line would allow a train per turn, it would make sense? That would potentially give Germany up to 14 trains per turn--20 if we say all "western" occupied lands--, which is far more than they have now, but it would also allow the Allies some "soft" targets (I can't imagine a factory at Calais sticking around for more than a turn). In practicality, you might only want to build 6 in France (which is about as many as could be supported without allowing the Allies to attack from base, at least early). You'd get 7 with Aarhus. Holland and Belgium are pretty soft targets in my mind as they can easily be attacked by bombers flying outside of radar range.

 

[JPetroski]

Also, when you shoot down my bombers near Wilhelmshaven this turn, see if any escape into the night, or if they are all one shot. I haven't seen a bomber of Gareth's disappear in awhile and I'm wondering if maybe he has a point about increasing their stats somewhat, but I could just be on a tear.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

* I noticed that "Hide certain units in the combat report" (Esc) doesn't have a "next" button.

When you press OK, the next "page" appears (at the top, it says something like page 1 of 12). You can't combine choices and checkboxes in the same text window.

* Is it possible to reset the food on airfields each turn so they don't grow and we don't get the "required for growth" or "this is now in disorder" messages? There's not much benefit to them gaining size.

I've been noticing that, too, and being annoyed with it. I have some daylight airfields that are relying on urban squares for a bit of extra production (or, even railtrack squares). It would be fairly easy to cycle through the airfields and take away their food (maybe leaving half a box, so that they don't immediately starve if a square gets covered, or something). If we want all airfields to be at size 1 that's fine, but I'd probably like to do it manually via a key press, so that I can make sure I won't have units disbanded.

Another consideration we might have is instead of having German army groups increase the spawn rate, we could have factories in France do this instead. I think you only start with a handful and probably aren't keen to build too many more within easy range of my attacks, but maybe if each one west of that gray line would allow a train per turn, it would make sense? That would potentially give Germany up to 14 trains per turn--20 if we say all "western" occupied lands--, which is far more than they have now, but it would also allow the Allies some "soft" targets (I can't imagine a factory at Calais sticking around for more than a turn). In practicality, you might only want to build 6 in France (which is about as many as could be supported without allowing the Allies to attack from base, at least early). You'd get 7 with Aarhus. Holland and Belgium are pretty soft targets in my mind as they can easily be attacked by bombers flying outside of radar range.

My initial thought is that if I think a factory will stand for 3 turns, it is worth putting 2 trains into it in France, which might create this weird dynamic where factories are routinely restored and destroyed in France. Perhaps the bonus would be technically worse than the current one, but it would make the game seem kind of bizarre.

We'll have to see how that plays out (I might need to extend the "railroad to nowhere" SE of Paris and link it up near Metz AF, and either swap Paris' RR Yard to the south or potentially even add Dijon or Nancy as cities, just so there are 3-4 routes out instead of 2).

I was also thinking we might need some extra railroads, and maybe a Rhine crossing near Friedrichshaven.

Also, when you shoot down my bombers near Wilhelmshaven this turn, see if any escape into the night, or if they are all one shot. I haven't seen a bomber of Gareth's disappear in awhile and I'm wondering if maybe he has a point about increasing their stats somewhat, but I could just be on a tear.

They escaped into the night from my fighters, but I didn't use rockets. When the stats were balanced, veteran units didn't create veteran munitions, so if you're attacking rookie stirlings with vet 110s, I can see that being a problem. I'm pretty sure I made it so that munitions could be chosen to not to be veteran in the settings, but I don't remember if the distinction could be made for the day and night. I could give the rockets a failure rate at night, or make it so that bombers can't be killed in a single shot from full health, or something.

 

[JPetroski]

They escaped into the night from my fighters, but I didn't use rockets. When the stats were balanced, veteran units didn't create veteran munitions, so if you're attacking rookie stirlings with vet 110s, I can see that being a problem. I'm pretty sure I made it so that munitions could be chosen to not to be veteran in the settings, but I don't remember if the distinction could be made for the day and night. I could give the rockets a failure rate at night, or make it so that bombers can't be killed in a single shot from full health, or something.

Let's see how things work out when the Halifax and Lancs come onboard, as the B-17s don't seem to have much trouble staying alive, yet aren't. I gave them extra HP (30 vs 20 on the 17's) but perhaps I should have just raised their defense by 1.

I was also thinking we might need some extra railroads, and maybe a Rhine crossing near Friedrichshaven.

I'll tweak this for the next release. I think the easiest thing to do is just switch how Paris' RR route goes, and have that be the middle one. Friedrichshaven can have a crossing but I'll swap their marshalling yard west of the Rhine so reinforcements can be cut off in the same manner.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Allied fighters near Brest are almost completely wiped out. Unfortunately, little was left over to engage the Bombers near Nantes, and only a couple are downed.

At night, vet ME110s engage Stirlings, and I am convinced that they are way too powerful.

Add to your list of map tweaks:
Remove industry tile at (279,81). It isn't attached to a target, but would be quite useful for an airbase, especially now that all trains are coming in from France.

There is also a stray refinery tile near Berlin (358,66) that should be removed.

 

[JPetroski]

Egon Mayer and 4 of his 190 wingmen are shot down. More convoys arrive carrying P-38s to continue the fight over the Atlantic approaches. Meanwhile, the USAAF continues to gain strength.

At night, vet ME110s engage Stirlings, and I am convinced that they are way too powerful.

It would make sense to me that they'd only fire rockets by day and cannon by night. Maybe we should switch the rockets to secondary attack and give them the same cannons as the Ju88s (I think medium)?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

A convoy is sunk, and a bit of fighting over the Channel.

It would make sense to me that they'd only fire rockets by day and cannon by night. Maybe we should switch the rockets to secondary attack and give them the same cannons as the Ju88s (I think medium)?

Their only advantage over the Ju88s would be the Wilde Sau bonus, and they are otherwise rather worse aircraft. They might get a bit of use in northern Germany where day and night air raids are both likely to happen, and are near the edge of radar cover, but otherwise wouldn't really be that useful.

 

[JPetroski]

We shoot down 3 more planes and launch an attack at Lille but do no damage through heavy cloud cover.

Their only advantage over the Ju88s would be the Wilde Sau bonus, and they are otherwise rather worse aircraft. They might get a bit of use in northern Germany where day and night air raids are both likely to happen, and are near the edge of radar cover, but otherwise wouldn't really be that useful.

I don't know - if you're faced with 6 B-17's that could shoot back against a 109 or 190 (almost guaranteed that both of those aircraft are destroyed or exceptionally mangled) and you have 3 Me110s that can one-shot them (as they often can with rockets), now you only have 3 x B-17 defensive fire to contend with (which is usually survivable). To me, that is worthwhile having a few bomber destroyers on hand.

I think you just haven't had to face a large enough swarm yet but what you may find happens is that you end up running into a situation where you don't have enough fully healthy fighters to take the brunt of defensive fire and perhaps survive after awhile. It's unlikely that damaged fighters make it out alive.

We'll see how it plays out, but you may yet find some use for these aircraft.

 

[JPetroski]

Well, I reconfirmed something I've reconfirmed consistently through the years: I'm an idiot.

I had a typo in the terrain settings where urban tiles reduced a defender's strength by half. Changing this meant that a test of 10x Ju88C veterans vs. 10x regular Stirlings saw the Stirling survival rate increase to 80% from 20%.....

Please use these rules going forward. I trust this change will breath a new found admiration for the bomber destroyers, and their more powerful rockets, within you

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Let's pause the game until we get the various issues sorted out.

By the way, my preference for 88s isn't that medium guns are just as good as rockets (they certainly aren't), but that in the day time, the 88 also has rockets, and so fills a similar role to the 110.

 

[JPetroski]

By the way, my preference for 88s isn't that medium guns are just as good as rockets (they certainly aren't), but that in the day time, the 88 also has rockets, and so fills a similar role to the 110.

I'm not sure why I added that to them. But with them having that, I am in total agreement with you: there is absolutely no point to using 110s. Thus it seems likely that their munitions are on the chopping block.

As to trying to figure out the issue - I am baffled because I ran several tests this morning with consistent results that were significantly different, yet later today they do seem to be more in line. I hope I am not going crazy and maybe the 30-40 I tried was just too small of a sample size?

In any event, I think the core issue with Bomber Command is that there is no good way for the pilots to become veterans, like the 8th has. If they are vets, they seem to do much better, unless they come against a vet, in which case it drops again, but seemingly not too bad (though again, small sample size).

Thinking out loud:

Could an RAF bomber that presses k next to an enemy urban target in Germany (not occupied) be changed to vet status (but not the first munition it drops with k)?

I was initially going to ask if we could have it so any bomber that has NONE and rearms gets changed to vet but that is easily exploitable by dropping bombs in empty English fields. If it's possible to only bestow this for pressing k next to a target in Germany (read: deep raid) then I think things might balance better. Perhaps even the 17 and 24 could have this mechanism (you'd have to get there, but if you did, you might have an easier time getting out).

I think France/Low Countries/Denmark are far too easy to hit to get this benefit.

What do you think?