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Ottoman warlords scenario

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Scenarios' started by axiomtk, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. tahnkout

    tahnkout Warlord

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    Location:
    Turkey//Izmir
    Armenian authorities were present at the agreement:

    "The Government of the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia:

    Askanaz Mravian, People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs; Poghos Makintsian, People's Commissar for Internal Affairs;"

    for the actual Kars Agreement: http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/kars.html
     
  2. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Oh, so the Soviets had taken over when the Kars agreement was signed? That would explain the Shrunken borders. Anyway, yes I'll admit that some Armenians did rebel but only for equal right for Armenians in the Empire, not for separation. That does not justify the killing of a million innocent people. Few of the men who died were actually fighters. I'll elaborate a bit more later.
     
  3. tahnkout

    tahnkout Warlord

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    The best part is this story: According to Kilic Ali memories (which was one of the best friends of Ataturk), president Wilson was going to observe the Armenian genocide made by the Turks in 1920. But he believed in false stories, that all east anatolia belong to the newly established democratic armenia etc. Ataturk send a messenger to meet Wilson in Sivas. They both met and observe together there and Ataturk told the truth about the Armenians (that they rebelled and after so many years of peace, they started to kill Turks, and that we never killed children and women). Wilson had 4 translaters which three of them were Armenian. Even they couldn't believe their eyes what they saw. After seeing these facts, Wilson changed his mind and decided that these areas (which are inside our borders) belong to the Turks and draw our borders...

    If this hadn't happen, probably it would end up with war against Armenia and Russia...

    If you rebel, there is no excuses Drtad. The rebeller should know one thing, if he succeeds he will be a hero, if he doesn't... well he will be dead...which will not be genocide...

    I do not know about the equal right thing (will make some researches if I have time) but for so many years of peace, doesn't it sound a bit odd to rebel? why not earlier? I think the Russian have a finger in this...I am waiting for your answer my friend...

    Take care...
     
  4. jefmart1

    jefmart1 Prince

    Joined:
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    463
    England was Americas government and we rebelled.

    Vietnam rebelled against France (and the US)

    Celts rebelled aginst Rome

    Scots and Irish rebelled against England

    Polish Jews revolted in Warsaw at end of WW II

    Etc, etc, etc

    You have to stand up for yourself even against your own government if it is oppressive and especially if it is killing you...

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike..." Thomas Jefferson

    Plus if you rebel and lose, don't be surprised if they kick your ass something fierce!
     
  5. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Alright, in response to your question of why not earlier. First of all, Armenians did attempt to make things more equal, such as having the right to speak in court trials and not have extra taxes for being Christian. Another bad thing that they rebelled about was that Sultan Hamid II was massacreing Armenians left and right! That's a good reason isn't it?:) The Catholicos Khrimian Hayrig tried to make a plea to other nations to pressure Turkey for equality, and he said that we have no political power, so they have no need to care. These are some of the many quotes of important people of the time. Including Ataturk Mustafa Kemal.:eek:

    “These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.” Kemal Pasha

    ”Mr. Speaker, with mixed emotions we mark the 50th anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenian people. In taking notice of the shocking events in 1915, we observe this anniversary with sorrow in recalling the massacres of Armenians and with pride in saluting those brave patriots who survived to fight on the side of freedom during World War I. - Congressional Record, pg. 8890 “ Gerald Ford

    Enver Pasha Quotes

    “The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.”
    In reply to US Ambassador Morgenthau who was deploring the massacres against Armenians and attributing them to irresponsible subalterns and underlings in the distant provinces, Enver's reply was...
    “You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.”

    Talat Pasha quotes
    In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...
    "Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention."
    After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...
    "What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians."
    Mustafa Arif Minister of the Interior December 1918 when Talat fled
    "Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them."
     
  6. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Jeffmart, but what if your ass was getting kicked before, during, and after you rebelled! And Armenians did not really lose, in a sense they were victorious. In 1918 May, the Turks advanced on Yerevan, the jewel of Armenia. If Yerevan was sacked and razed, the Turks would have won, and the Armenians would have lost. However, At the battles of Kara-killise, Bash Abaran, and most importantly, Sardarapat, the Turks were routed by a volunteer Armenian army outnumbered 10 to 1.
     
  7. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    Props to Drtad for providing the relevant info on "the Armenian Question" as it was called in the 19th century. I did a 20-page term paper on the Armenian genocide and concluded that it was a genocide. Rounding up people of a particular ethnicity, marching them through the desert, and shooting them in the wasteland after they've dug their own graves is nothing short of genocide. Further, it was justified under the casus belli of civil war after the Young Turks suspected the Armenians of seeking Russian protection - all well and good under a political umbrella, but collective punishment via murder is not a civil conflict. If the USA had performed a similar action to the Japanese citizens in the concentration camps during WWII, in addition to the genocidal actions in bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I would not think the USA should be permitted to exist as a country. So no, I'm not letting the USA off either.
    However, history has happened, and things are as they are. To paraphrase Joyce, History is the nightmare from which we never awake.

    The other pertinent factor regarding the treaty of Sevres was that the Allies originally proposed an Armenian State and a Kurdistan. Mustafa Kemal actually took troops and marched on the Armenian state, which lead to the allies permitting Turkey its pre-war borders. Kurdistan fell off the map when Britain and France realized there were gas and oil fields, and that the Turks would be much better trading partners than a new, nationally empowered Kurdistan.

    Politics ain't pretty. I'm glad to have Turks participating in the forums, but I don't particularly respect their government. I'm not fond of governments in general. However, at least we have the freedom to debate on the forums, even when the issue is only remotely related to the game. I'd hate to see things go the way of Canada or Austria where debating the Jewish holocaust is a crime, or France, where a bill has been proposed that debating the Armenian genocide should be a crime. The debate can be open, but for me, the issue is resolved. A minimum of 750,000 people died through outright murder or indirectly through starvation during "relocation." The intention of the Young Turks was clear. Nothing will bring those people back to life, but I would like to see the Turkish nation own up.
     
  8. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Extremely well put orgonebox.:goodjob:
     
  9. Ceritoglu

    Ceritoglu Janissary

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    The Allies did propose these institutions in the Treaty of Sevres - which was signed by the representatives of the Ottoman Empire. This treaty reduced Turkey to a small enclave in Anatolia - France occupying the southern coast, Italy occupying many of the Aegean Islands, Greece occupying Izmir (or Smyrna) and much of the Aegean, with Armenian and Kurdish states set up in the Eastern part of modern-day Turkey. The Ottoman government was little more than a puppet of the Allies, how much autonomy it was showing when it signed the Treaty of Sevres is debatable. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed after the ensuing Turkish War of Independence by Ataturk, representing the Republic of Turkey and the Grand National Assembly - a far more representetive body than the Sultanate. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed by the Allies establishing Turkey's current borders, disspelling any claim over the region by Armenians or Kurds.

    This makes Sevres a relatively irrelevant treaty, I think you'll agree. As far as Turkey is concerned, this is all that matters - the whole Armenian Genocide/No Genocide debate only matters to the Turkish Government if it compromises Turkey's national borders. This is the political element of the issue. Thus, when nations like France ban any dispute of a genocide Turkey immediately interprets it as a political move to change its borders. As far as Turkey is concerned, this issue of historical debate is transforming into a political bargaining chip - and they don't like it one bit. If you removed the political element of the issue, then the government of Turkey would probably become less concerned about denying the existence of a genocide.
     
  10. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    I don't think it is political, it is moral. Did the Jewish Holocaust change Germany's borders? no. Did the Khmer Rouge change Cambodia's borders? no. Why should the Armenian Genocide change Turkey's borders? Anyway, what could Armenia possibly gain out of it, an ancient homeland infested with rebellious Kurds? It would actually be a good deal for Turkey.;) Hypothetically.
     
  11. Jouda

    Jouda .

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    to be even more OT:

    ceritoglu> how the hell could you get such scores in your political orientation? :D
     
  12. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    Maybe now we should discuss how the Nagorno-Karabakh war is justified.
     
  13. axiomtk

    axiomtk Chieftain

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    i really have nothing to say..only i am ashemed that you play the playable games..as we always will

    Yurtda baris, Dunyada baris..
     
  14. General_Putnik

    General_Putnik Chieftain

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    Your Ottoman help was so appreciated, everybody loves a Turkish overlord and the occupational nature of life that come with it.
     
  15. LaCiencia

    LaCiencia Data is Power

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    Anything about a scenario? btw guys this is a GAME :lol:
     

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