[GS] Ottomans Livestream Discussion

[Victoria]

You don't call it the first Mona Lisa. It's THE Mona Lisa.

... Bad choice sorry.... it is not the first Mona Lisa that hangs in the Louvre.
https://www.france24.com/en/2013021...py-leonardo-da-vinci-france-paris-switzerland

 

[Xandinho]

Did anyone notice the devs said "Ibrahim is the first unique governor"? More than once. Implying that there will be more.

I also noticed this, and although this does not necessarily mean that we will have more content after GS, this made me thoughtful. When I think about the important civilizations absent (Maya and Babylon, for example) along with the fact that the two expansions were launched quite early, and even with a third expansion we would have exact 50 civs, it makes me think that we will have more content after GS .

 

[Martinus]

Purple tie and sweater= Phoenicia next

The globe is also showing Eastern Mediterranean...

 

[agonistes]

Interesting, from the chat: You can choose your civs colours (the 'jersey') in the start menu

For me, one of the best things about the xpac if true.

 

[Victoria]

If a Janissary can upgrade from a swordsman why can't my redcoats upgrade from a musket man? They were muskets anyway, not exactly unique.

Why do UU cost so much more? A Heavy Chariot costs 65 and a Maryannu chariot costs 120 and cannot be upgraded to knights.... WTF?
Would Egypt be better if at least it only cost 65, it's not like it needs special resources anyway.
If a Khevsu could be upgrade from a warrior would Georgia be better?

If it is because they do not need resources then why not make them upgrade able and use resources. A legion should be upgrade able from a warrior but should need iron. I really struggle with this idea that uniques need less. They should be a benefit to a civ, a unit that replaces what is there at the same price but buffed is a simple model.

So many discrepencies.... and why? I really am at a loss why a Janissary should be upgrade able from a swordsman when they are so cheap and also have this nice historical context of only being done in captured cities that will never be used by anyone who knows how to play the game.

 

[Sagax]

If a Janissary can upgrade from a swordsman why can't my redcoats upgrade from a musket man? They were muskets anyway, not exactly unique.

Why do UU cost so much more? A Heavy Chariot costs 65 and a Maryannu chariot costs 120 and cannot be upgraded to knights.... WTF?
Would Egypt be better if at least it only cost 65, it's not like it needs special resources anyway.
If a Khevsu could be upgrade from a warrior would Georgia be better?

If it is because they do not need resources then why not make them upgrade able and use resources. A legion should be upgrade able from a warrior but should need iron. I really struggle with this idea that uniques need less. They should be a benefit to a civ, a unit that replaces what is there at the same price but buffed is a simple model.

So many discrepencies.... and why? I really am at a loss why a Janissary should be upgrade able from a swordsman when they are so cheap and also have this nice historical context of only being done in captured cities that will never be used by anyone who knows how to play the game.

Seems like they vastly underestimated the benefits of upgrading and overestimated the benefits of no resource requirement. Actually.... are they making all the UUs resource-dependent now? (except for the very early UUs)

They keep mentioning how they have gone through every civ to see if and how they should be tweaked for GS, let’s see how that turns out. (Current guess - nothing too exciting, if the bragging point so far has been Egypt’s measly food bonus and Russian winter meme)

 

[Lily_Lancer]

As I said originally, we can take cities fairly easily with rams, taking cities is not an issue for us... +10 does not help against the troops, just being against an AI is all you need for that I guess.

Was I correct in seeing it sack after attacking, that indicates it can do the other things like promote... some nice extra advantages.
Sadly though as I stated earlier, a lot of AI do not settler on the coast... as seen in the video and this does limit the ability but does mean an early key eureka and that move speed and invisibility does mean some nice surprises for people, especially in multiplayer.
I was pleased they responded but I feel the response did not get our point. I replies more succinctly in the pillage thread.

There is a current thread on it, see next response.
The pillage thread is Pillage Yield in GS

Already done in the other thread before the liveplay. Basically flip n pillage is the simple and most tempting way but @Lily_Lancer did go to the extreme of building a "science city" with lots of mines in a place where it loses loyalty very fast (would take a few builders) let it flip take 1000 science capture and repair and get just crazy amounts ... not so easy to make a culture one in the right place and harder for a faith city... but science is pretty key...
Lets take it at T80... you will be getting about 80 science for a pillage.. even just 4 mines is 320 science at a time when you are maybe making 40 -60 science per turn.

Look, you'll be getting 160 science for a pillage since there is double pillage card. So 80-120 per turn.

The key is that you can build more than 1 "science" city, if you build 10 you get 1,000 science per turn at T80.

 

[Victoria]

since there is double pillage card

... I know but there may not be and I am trying to keep it simple. When you start saying 1000 science per turn people start disbelieving and saying no one will play like that.
If you submit a GOTM science victory at T100 consisting of 3 cities doing this, all it proves is you will take things to an unreal level to play or make a point. It certainly would be a boring game.
What I am saying is just the sheer amount of science this will generate without building a science city will be a lot. As you said earlier GS will really mean Great Science as pillaging becomes more and more unreal and in multiplayer people start trying to make science cities.
We are in agreement it is stupid, we both know the cards and values.

 

[steveg700]

If a Janissary can upgrade from a swordsman why can't my redcoats upgrade from a musket man? They were muskets anyway, not exactly unique.

Why do UU cost so much more? A Heavy Chariot costs 65 and a Maryannu chariot costs 120 and cannot be upgraded to knights.... WTF?
Would Egypt be better if at least it only cost 65, it's not like it needs special resources anyway.
If a Khevsu could be upgrade from a warrior would Georgia be better?

If it is because they do not need resources then why not make them upgrade able and use resources. A legion should be upgrade able from a warrior but should need iron. I really struggle with this idea that uniques need less. They should be a benefit to a civ, a unit that replaces what is there at the same price but buffed is a simple model.

So many discrepencies.... and why? I really am at a loss why a Janissary should be upgrade able from a swordsman when they are so cheap and also have this nice historical context of only being done in captured cities that will never be used by anyone who knows how to play the game.

Let's not forget the Khmer with their domrey. 220 production versus 120 for a catapult. I guess it is actually being costed against a bombard (280), but the bottom line is, it's priced for a civ with a level of production that Khmer are not likely to have at that era.

Man, when did I ever think Khmer had a good combo of features? Where's our list of second-pass civ's?

 

[UWHabs]

Let's not forget the Khmer with their domrey. 220 production versus 120 for a catapult. I guess it is actually being costed against a bombard (280), but the bottom line is, it's priced for a civ with a level of production that Khmer are not likely to have at that era.

Man, when did I ever think Khmer had a good combo of features? Where's our list of second-pass civ's?

I played a Khmer game recently, and they were kind of fun in a certain way. Suicide missionaries, tons of housing/amenities/food from holy sites and aqueducts. But they have some big flaws:
-Domrey are kind of useless, being an expensive hard-build that really isn't a whole lot better than a catapult (probably worse when you factor the cost)
-They have all these bonuses for aqueducts and holy sites, but no discounts for either.
-They need to get up to building a temple before their suicide missionaries come into play. Never mind that they can't trigger their own attacks, so you have to wait for someone to come at you to get the benefit from them.

They're neat to play to try to max their benefits, but they could definitely use a couple more bonuses to tie things in together (like at least if their Grand Barays were a half-price district with those bonuses, that would be a nice extra).

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

If a Janissary can upgrade from a swordsman why can't my redcoats upgrade from a musket man? They were muskets anyway, not exactly unique.

Why do UU cost so much more? A Heavy Chariot costs 65 and a Maryannu chariot costs 120 and cannot be upgraded to knights.... WTF?
Would Egypt be better if at least it only cost 65, it's not like it needs special resources anyway.
If a Khevsu could be upgrade from a warrior would Georgia be better?

If it is because they do not need resources then why not make them upgrade able and use resources. A legion should be upgrade able from a warrior but should need iron. I really struggle with this idea that uniques need less. They should be a benefit to a civ, a unit that replaces what is there at the same price but buffed is a simple model.

So many discrepencies.... and why? I really am at a loss why a Janissary should be upgrade able from a swordsman when they are so cheap and also have this nice historical context of only being done in captured cities that will never be used by anyone who knows how to play the game.

That has always annoyed me about the Red Coats. Their cost and build times are absurd, rendering them a huge pain to acquire outside of the UA. I think I have built them maybe once or twice and it's a shame; Red Coats are incredibly useful units.

I think it speaks to a bigger problem with the unique UUs: They are generally not worth it unless they are a replacement unit.

 

[Builderphile]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't use a numerical descriptor unless there's more than one of something. A first implies a second. If there aren't more in the plans, then I would say "This is the only unique governor, so it has to be special." Or "This unique governor had to be special because we've never tried anything like this before."

You don't call it the first Mona Lisa. It's THE Mona Lisa.

I can confirm that my wife hates it when I introduce her as my "first wife".

 

[Disgustipated]

I can confirm that my wife hates it when I introduce her as my "first wife".

Call her your last wife instead.

 

[Inhalaattori]

They did have the policy screen open and should have had them.

EDIT: Raids is shown as +100% to coastal raids only.

It is currently (RnF) +100% to both pillaging and coastal raiding

the screen is at 12:55

It literally says "Yields gained from pillaging and coastal raids are +100%". So its totally same as before.

What I find interesting is that they changed bonuses for Democracy and Communism. Communism now gives +10% science and Democaracy gives food and production bonus to trade routes that was earlier gained with Arsenal of Democracy policy card. So probably they have changed that policy card or removed it.

It seems that Communism in now more clearly science victory government. Democracy on the other hand is the choice for the Civs that go for the Diplomatic victory.

 

[bite]

So after this live stream we only have

Conformation of Phoenicia/Eleanor

and

Confirmation on the name of the Mud Volcanoes and one more Natural Wonder reveal

Unless of course Firaxis is holding something else back

 

[UWHabs]

So after this live stream we only have

Conformation of Phoenicia/Eleanor

and

Confirmation on the name of the Mud Volcanoes and one more Natural Wonder reveal

Unless of course Firaxis is holding something else back

Still feels like according to their counts released, there should be more regular units/districts, right? And we still haven't had lot of confirmation on the late game improvements (seastead, offshore wind farm, etc...). And we still don't have the details on what has changed on the science victory. They've definitely been very careful around the late game reveals to this point.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So after this live stream we only have

Conformation of Phoenicia/Eleanor

and

Confirmation on the name of the Mud Volcanoes and one more Natural Wonder reveal

Unless of course Firaxis is holding something else back

It'd be kind of nice to get those 4th tier governments revealed.

 

[bite]

It'd be kind of nice to get those 4th tier governments revealed.

Oh yes those two

 

[acluewithout]

What I find interesting is that they changed bonuses for Democracy and Communism. Communism now gives +10% science and Democaracy gives food and production bonus to trade routes that was earlier gained with Arsenal of Democracy policy card. So probably they have changed that policy card or removed it.

It seems that Communism in now more clearly science victory government. Democracy on the other hand is the choice for the Civs that go for the Diplomatic victory.

Boo! I really liked that Arsenal of Democracy Card! Nice synergy with Alliances. And I mostly liked Communism and Democracy as they were!

 

[Lord Lakely]

I played a Khmer game recently, and they were kind of fun in a certain way. Suicide missionaries, tons of housing/amenities/food from holy sites and aqueducts. But they have some big flaws:
-Domrey are kind of useless, being an expensive hard-build that really isn't a whole lot better than a catapult (probably worse when you factor the cost)
-They have all these bonuses for aqueducts and holy sites, but no discounts for either.
-They need to get up to building a temple before their suicide missionaries come into play. Never mind that they can't trigger their own attacks, so you have to wait for someone to come at you to get the benefit from them.

They're neat to play to try to max their benefits, but they could definitely use a couple more bonuses to tie things in together (like at least if their Grand Barays were a half-price district with those bonuses, that would be a nice extra).

Khmer's bonus basically means that they can support a Holy Site in each city with an Aqueduct. (+1housing +extra food +amenity => 2-3 additional pop in every khmer city compared to other civs, meaning an additional district) So basically, while a generic civ would often not build the Holy Site because they can fit it due to Population restraints, Khmer can. Holy Sites, with careful planning, do not shut out campuses, com hubs or theatre squares for Khmer like they do for Russia or Arabia (two civs that should also be building Holy Sites everywhere).

The caveat is that you have to build the Holy Site first *and* Early *and* next to a river *and* you must *also* build an Aqueduct in the *same* city. It's Free Imperial Cities, but significantly less flexible and a massive hassle, but at least the prasats in every city + faith econ paves the way for either culture (relics) or domination (FB'ing units) victory later on.