Andrei_V said:
I love Russian nationalism, it reminds me how the rest of Europe was a 100 years ago! (The French, British and others should get all up themselves about the things Russia gets up to, they got up to the same stuff!)
OUTrage! Lies from Religion and History Textbooks.
- Thread starter Tekee
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I love Russian nationalism, it reminds me how the rest of Europe was a 100 years ago! (The French, British and others should get all up themselves about the things Russia gets up to, they got up to the same stuff!)
Ecofarm
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You don't need to. Since we are changing the rules, all science that occured in the presence of the Orthodox Church (including everything from the USSR) is now officially "Orthodox Science". Congrats, guys; great work. You also, hereby, get to claim that if it were not for Orthodox Science, there might not be any science at all today. The world owes your church a huge thank you and we are forever indebted.
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My only problem with my textbooks is how expensive they are.
Neonanocyborgasm
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Think about how illogical that statement is. Things were so good that there had to be a perestroyka? Right...
The lines and shoddy goods were always there, long before perestroyka. Even ration cards were employed from time to time.
It's rather an extremist view of several crazy clericals. Not a common.That's a common view in the Russian Orthodox Church.I heard it many times, though sometimes they call it "Protestant Science", by its essence heretical. Can we finally develop our own, Orthodox Science, blah blah blah.
I never said "things were so good", especially regarding consumer goods. Would you be so kind not to put your words into my mouth?
Like I said. During perestroika, these issues worsened dramatically, and the sentence from your quote
"Oftentimes, they would never manage to buy anything as the store would be sold out before they'd get to the start of the line. There were even running jokes about these sorts of things. People would often get on lines without even knowing what they were for, just because the time spent discovering would be best spent just standing on line and taking one's chances." relates to the perestroika times, when shops' shelves became empty.
When you find this view in a website that says "approved by the Patriarch", you cannot help thinking that this is not just "an extremist view". Also, they obviously borrow from AiG, Discotute and the like quite a lot.
Read carefully the official church document "Social Concept" (Sotsialnaya Kontseptsiya), especially part XIV dealing with "secular science, culture and education". I like the part where they say that Christianity "de-mythologized" nature (by introducing the subject of demonology, one might guess), and then "it is desirable that all the education be built on religious principles and Christian values."
Here is what Wikipedia says about Orthodox Science: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Русска....B8.D0.BC.D0.B5.D1.87.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B8.D1.8F
Damn crappy long link.
But generally it mentions Orthodox Science in Medicine, Astronomy, Biology, Geology, and Philosophy. Though this is when Orthodoxy has had a DIRECT influence in this science. Notice that there is no sections on Chemistry or Physics because this is studying the laws of nature which do not have a religious component. So Orthodox science probably only refers to Science where Orthodoxy can have an explanation. Just like Protestant science is like "Creationism"
Another link http://www.mgarsky-monastery.org/kolokol.php?id=1049
Discuss Western Europe and why it is wrong in its study of Patrology. The study of ancient Church Fathers. This is the science Theology.
The only way I can see Orthodox Church talking about "Protestant Science" and "Orthodox Science" to mean something other then religious differences is a sort of Nationalism. Where all achievements of Russians in chemistry and physics are borught under "Orthodox Science".... in the same way as Islamic Science.
Giving Orthodoxy the privilege of claiming that these achievements would be IMPOSSIBLE without Orthodoxy. This view I never heard before but if I trust your word for it. I would just call it a nationalistic sentiment. Which the Orthodox Church supports this rebirth of nationalism. (Spiritual in a way)
Though I would not expect to see this word "Orthodox Science" and Protestant Science and Catholic Science discussed as anything but Theological sciences. (Differences in Theology on issues of biology and geology and Astrology but NEVER Chemistry or Physics". Unlike the term Islamic Science being a collection of secular advances that have nothing to do with religion.
If you can show me a place where they do discuss about heretical "Protestant Beliefs" about Chemistry or Physics then my previous point becomes moot.
It mentions huge negative influence of church on Astronomy. Astrology is a pseudoscience, just as Creationism is.
If you actually read the article, it indeed mentioned about direct influence of Orthodox church in science. In vast majority of cases it was very negative influence - regarding science, the influence of Orthodox church was similar to the influence of Catholic church. Unlike cultural influence, it's not the most favorite side of churches.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
So how did it relate back to a creation of "Orthodox Science".
Orthodox Science is negative because Religion is not a science. They are seperate things. You speak as if Catholic and Orthodox Church, areas where they exist would never have anything good come out of them but the entire modern world came out of areas with these churches. The influence is not as negative as you say.
That is why I said they never mention Physics or Chemistry because these things cannot be argued from a Church standpoint. As they are laws of nature and very mathematical.
Islam is acreditited with (beyond Coffee and Toothpaste) things like modern Astronomy (sorry for saying ASTROLOGY), optics and other very physical things. This cannot be called Islamic Science since Islam has nothing to do with these laws of nature. But Islamic biology and medicine can be called Islamic Science since other religious bodies have different opinions on this. And that all it is, opinions. Giving Islam credit for more then it is worth is what I disagree with in the textbooks. Islam was not a catalyst and the Christianity was not regressive. Islamic achievement was just natural since Islam took over the most advanced and propserous area of the Western world at the time. I'd even say tha Islamic science is just a coverup to disaude asking the more important question "What Happened to the Islamic golden Age?"
I cannot comprehend an Orthodox Science or Catholic Science. Not withstanding their narrowminded influence.
About Astrology or Creationism?You make Nancy Reagan cry
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Astrology.
FIne fine I will change astrology to astronomy yeeessh.
Religion has nothing to do with nature sciences - not only Physics, but Medicine, Astronomy, Biology and Geology as well. But it can influence on the development of the science. Islamic or Orthodox Biology is a nonsense. Talking about "Islamic science", people usually mean good development of some nature sciences in Islamic countries during certain period in Middle Ages. The term "Islamic science" itself is incorrect, except when it's referring to religious disciplines or philosophy, but it is usually related to past scientific achievements of Islamic countries.
Then why in textbooks do they just paintbrush everything "Islamic science" even when they talk about non-religious disciplines
ahhhhhhhhhhhh
You just said Islamic countries and we do not refer to Christian countries today.
Islam is a both a legal system and a religion so a country can be entirely Islamic (Sharia and Islam religion) while Christianity has had secular laws and religious laws living side by side.
But it is funny that you said Islamic countries and Islamic Science. Everything that happened to a Muslim is a Islamic ***
But I am not arguing for the removal of Islam but just a more correct term that do not give Islam credit for secular advances. Islam can only be creditied for religious laws that have no meaning to non-Muslims.
Oh there is a word, Islam=Christianity and Muslim=Christian. Call it Muslim Science but this will take a large body away from the "Islamic Science" since all the Greeks and Byzantines and Syrians and Persians will be grouped into religous catergoreis that were not Muslim. Finally destroying this whole "Islamic Science" term.
TheLastOne36
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First of all... History is written by the Winners. Plain and Simple.
You can not deny those line up for food. They were present and all the real. My Dad vividely recalls the lines, and IIRC Warpus said he went through those lines as well. I even remember some Russian guy on the forums saying that Russia had the same lines.
The truth is, Russia sent all the food produced in the Warsaw Pact straight to be Russian cities like Moscow, leaving just enough for the people to survive on. IIRC the Russian guy I mentioned earlier said that the same was happening within Russia with the smaller Russian cities giving up it's food supply for the Big Cities.
By sub-standard and inferior quality, they probably meant the lack of food in general. Not that the food was of lesser quality. Everyone knows that the food we had is more delicious than Big Mac's.
Like I said, History is written by the Winners. Why do you think Poland's history of being a European Powerhouse is forgotten and everyone in Western Europe (and America) thinks we were invaded constantly by Germany and Russia and use horses against tanks?
No, that was not my point. Physics, Chemistry, and especially Biology (think Darwinism and Evolution) are "Protestant" in the sense they forget to mention God. The Protestants "humanized" Jesus up to the point where He is no longer God, but a mere human. That sort of science is materialistic and ultimately atheistic. Nothing genuinely "spiritual" in the sense "based on their own notion of God as Creator", and this is a straight way to self-destruction, Hitler, Stalin, etc.
If you can read in Russian, try this one.
Once again, they do not claim that. They regret that the Protestant Science advanced well ahead while the Orthodox Science stagnated at where it is, about the time of St. John Chrysostom. "As far as contemporary science is concerned, we are slaves to the Catholics and Protestants", that's what they are basically saying.
Oh this I understand!
Isn't this called Anti-Rationalism? Where Rationalism of the 20th century caused all this attrocities of the 20th century?
Orthodoxy, or Holy Russia at least was Great because daily Life and Religion of Orthodoxy was not separated. They were together always. (scenes of early 20th century peasants praying) - From a church documentary. Flash to today where they show some 11 year old kid smoking.
This documentary I felt was too old for me, its audience is for people 60+ old ladies who could say "Yeah kids these days are terrible!"
So I do not subscribe to these old-timer views. They ruin everything, I call them church hags. These old Pioneers and Komosols act like they own the place and that they are so holy and do everything right. Like when they attack verbally with nasty words young people who may be doing something not to their "holy" tastes. Like what are you doing old ladies?!
A rebirth of the church should exclude these sort of church hags who probably got up to their posisitons through their old atheistic communist connections.
I don't agree with this sort of slavery to Protestant and Catholic science. What about Meendeleev and the great Russian scientists of the 19th century. Very famous and the continuation of scientific accomplishment during the Soviet Years. There is not an inherent inferiority of our people. So I disagree with an inherent superiority of Protestants and Catholics sciences.
Taking God out of science is of course going harmful to the Church, we are furthering seperating God from daily life. Science should not be trying to disprove god but should continue to glorify him. So science for the sake of materialism and atheism is wrong in my opinion. Protestants are the weakest Christianity because they have no central authority and rather have this materiastic individualism about them. They are individuals and have lost community. Even their church can separate and there is now a Protestant Church that can justify anything, just depends on what you are looking to justify.
Again even if you find this foolish why is it a bad thing to dislike rationalism? (protestant science)
Isn't this called Anti-Rationalism? Where Rationalism of the 20th century caused all this attrocities of the 20th century?
Orthodoxy, or Holy Russia at least was Great because daily Life and Religion of Orthodoxy was not separated. They were together always. (scenes of early 20th century peasants praying) - From a church documentary. Flash to today where they show some 11 year old kid smoking.
This documentary I felt was too old for me, its audience is for people 60+ old ladies who could say "Yeah kids these days are terrible!"
So I do not subscribe to these old-timer views. They ruin everything, I call them church hags. These old Pioneers and Komosols act like they own the place and that they are so holy and do everything right. Like when they attack verbally with nasty words young people who may be doing something not to their "holy" tastes. Like what are you doing old ladies?!
A rebirth of the church should exclude these sort of church hags who probably got up to their posisitons through their old atheistic communist connections.
I don't agree with this sort of slavery to Protestant and Catholic science. What about Meendeleev and the great Russian scientists of the 19th century. Very famous and the continuation of scientific accomplishment during the Soviet Years. There is not an inherent inferiority of our people. So I disagree with an inherent superiority of Protestants and Catholics sciences.
Taking God out of science is of course going harmful to the Church, we are furthering seperating God from daily life. Science should not be trying to disprove god but should continue to glorify him. So science for the sake of materialism and atheism is wrong in my opinion. Protestants are the weakest Christianity because they have no central authority and rather have this materiastic individualism about them. They are individuals and have lost community. Even their church can separate and there is now a Protestant Church that can justify anything, just depends on what you are looking to justify.
Again even if you find this foolish why is it a bad thing to dislike rationalism? (protestant science)
I dunno. The correct Russian term is "mrakobesiye", roughly translated as "superstition", but combined with open hostility toward science.
There is another, quite different sort of "Orthodox Science", they harshly criticize 7-day creationism, but then babble about how the contemporary scientific theories fit the theological and philosophical framework laid out by St. Augustine and "patrosaint" ("svyatootecheskiye") thinkers. Here, in Russian again.
This is much less harmful, just nonsensical, and it is definitely not "science", yet one can bet they'll be pushing this nonsense to the schools.
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