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Outside the box. Shred the box.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by iggymnrr, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Finished my first HoF game in years. Tiny settler marathon map. Previous record used Gandhi for a 460 AD space win. I just submitted an Asoka game. 440 AD. Waiting for acceptance. Strategy called for no academy. Period. Never! Oxford was late too. Around the time of Mining Inc. I over settled too many cities and gave away a university city after Oxford. Then settled more cities for corporate resources. What's the point of universities? Even if only 4 are required for Oxford? Game was sloppy and better a result can be achieved. First GPs were an engineer and prophet. Paya and Parthenon were used. National epic was late. Popped borders with the Parthenon and later gave that city away ...

    This ain't rocket science. Outside the box. Shred the box.
     
  2. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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  3. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Good going!

    I never miss building an academy in my capital.. 50%
    But I'm guessing you used your scientists for other causes :)
     
  4. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Yes and no. Two engineers were the plan. One for the corp and one for the Ironworks. Prophet was for a shrine. GPs were mainly for golden ages. But any spare scientists were used to bulb/blast through to Cereal Mills. i.e. Biology, physics, electricity. Religious economy. UoS helped ensure scientists while Ironworks helped with the Spiral Minaret ... and the Taj.
     
  5. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Have another decent game that looks like ~440 AD too.Probably no point in submitting. Got metal casting from hut but then Oracled civil service. That was not good even with a 3 gold capitol. It was probably better to go theology or even skip civil service and go straight for banking. Scientist producing site did so by purely passive means. Great Library, UoS and mercantilism. Not once did a real citizen work a scientist slot. No academy and no Oxford too. Hm.

    AP can probably get chopped in a city early. With culture being the biggest problem that city can be later gifted to the AI. No resource requirement. Monarchy is also possible from a hut or by skipping civil service and going for banking. There's a random event that settles a great priest, merchant and general in the capitol for using hereditary rule ...
     
  6. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    It's good to see you are perfecting your game on a specific slot :)
    I've been looking for which maps fit which strategies..
    Which map are you playing on?
     
  7. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Tiny flat highlands. A round map might be tempting but not only is that more in expenses it is also harder to control culture. It is interesting to know what is possible without the usual means for science. The game I have that is currently on hold (due to stupid civil service) both the AP and Hagia Sophia could been up around ~2400 BC. And with 20 workers ... Maybe Ramses could do this and defer the pyramids until 0 BC.
     
  8. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Highlands is a map I''ll need to try sometime.. :)
    Why is a round map more expenses than flat?? If anything the city on the other side of the map should be closer to the capital, no?
    Or does it change the metrics of distance??

    Oh, and very good thread name. Was always on my mind to tell you..
     
  9. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Worldwrap affects distance maintenance. You'll have higher distance maintenace on cylindrical than on flat, and even higher on toroidal. It is linked to the maximum distance between two tiles on the map. The shorter that distance is, the higher the costs are.
     
  10. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Had I known this! :O
    Thanks for the tip :)
     
  11. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    There is some trade off in flat v cylindrical. I've had flat starts with a city in one corner and another city in the other corner by turn 20. That's expensive. The cities would be next door on a cylindrical map. But generally cities cost about .5 to 1 gold more on a cylindrical settler map. It's not uncommon for me to have 8 - 10 cities by turn 40 even on a tiny map. Once I had 12 ...
     
  12. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    yes, but I played Cylindrical on Terra.. So I had 2 sea ways to the new world, but that's it! (for the price of high maintenance.)
     
  13. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    I run into this scenario quite a lot on a Great Plains map, where the HOF rules force us to play with a Flat World Wrap setting, but an AI has their capital in the opposite corner of the map, which I then capture.

    I'm assuming, though, that you're talking more about getting Settlers from Huts and deciding that you like the area where the Settler appeared, which can be literally anywhere on the map that a Hut exists, including at the opposite side of the map.

    Given a map type with a lot of land that could be connected via a Cylindrical or Torriodal World Wrap setting, it's hard to know whether the extra convenience will be worth the extra Maintenance cost. I suppose that it's very situational, with the ability to pop Settlers possibly leaning toward wanting more wrapping, not only to reduce Maintenance of distant Cities that get settled early on but also to allow for easier access to some of the Huts.

    But, it is also easy to forget about the world-wrapping and have an AI sneak up on you--even on Settler Difficulty, an AI can take your City if you don't see his/her Warrior in time to defend your City that you likely left without a defender.



    That's quite a lot of Cities! About what percentage of those tend to be captured Cities versus Settlers-from-Huts Cities versus selt-built-Settler Cities?


    Circumnavigation
    Another noteworthy point about the World Wrap setting is that on a map that has some or a lot of water near the edges, a Cylindrical World Wrap setting (or even a Torroidal one) will enable one player to earn the Circumnavigation bonus. On a Flat World Wrap map, you can't Circumnavigate, which just logically makes sense, since the concept is that you're playing in only a limited region of the world and thus aren't travelling all of the way around it.

    So, on a Terra map, where you're likely to be the one to Circumnavigate, you do need to decide whether that +1 movement point is worth getting.

    On some other map types, such as Big & Small, where it's very easy to Circumnavigate in some cases, you can often get beaten to the Circumnavigation bonus by an AI, meaning that having Circumnavigation available can actually be a relative penalty to you, since then one of your competitors will have fast-moving Galleys and Triremes. I've had several of my Galleys sniped in this way, since it's harder to see enemy ships that are 3 squares away, perhaps hiding inside of a nearby AI City.
     
  14. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Yes to any and all forms of setters/cities. With the goal being a corporate Asoka (there is a state property Asoka) settling near corporate resources is the main goal. That can be a lot of cities on a tiny map. So much so culture will get in the way. Though there are tactics ...

    With 4 AI on a tiny map, city count will be 4 + settlers popped. 4 to 6 popped settlers with 1 worker seems playable. 8 settlers may be too much. With 2 AI the map can be curiously denied the last AI. So a few early settlers should be the goal, then pause for some cheap teching then try for the bigger techs from huts. Flat map works better to keep AI under control but maybe that is no big deal. There are ~23 huts so maybe 21 can be gotten ...

    Circumnavigation. It's easy for Asoka to settle a capitol and pop a worker. That worker can "run through the tundra" while hut-popping, circumnavigating back to home in time to lay down a farm as borders pop. Bad ass!

    All in all, my capitol city tends to look worse and worse over time when hut popping. Engineers for Mining Inc. and (perhaps) the Ironworks can come from cities with a sole forge and another with a forge/Hagia Sophia and either the pyramids or HG or both. This also explains a certain yearning for faster mercantilism. Oracling metal casting or theology does not involving waiting for currency and code of laws to finish. Civil service does and seems misdirected. The AP is basically a mini mining inc. Cheap temples and cheaper monasteries than libraries also function in a mini corporate fashion.
     
  15. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    While doing some my testing an idea occurred. If gifting cities has become a thing why not give away the capitol? It's primary function is to donate somewhat to a few early techs and expand borders. After that there isn't much use for awhile. Playing for an early engineer is easiest in the capitol and the AI expands so slowly to a 2nd city ... Basically, the capitols border popping abilities will be used to convert lumber into an engineer via a forge and settler/workers chopped until such time as it can be given to an AI before a DOW that will net 2 cities.

    With my growing contempt for civil service more bad starts can be played. Map edge city. Strip the map edge of lumber and give the city to the AI later. The city doesn't need to be much more than pop 2 or 3. No need for a granary. It is very likely an engineer can be gotten by turn 130, 2200 BC. That's about when an AI gets a 2nd city ...
     
  16. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I don't think you can ...
     
  17. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Yeah. Capitol needs to be moved first. Good news though. Testing has shown that It is possible to find a suitably bad location by ~turn 8 to found a capitol. One idea is to use the original capitol to chop out the AP before gifting it. This solves some cultural problems. A new capitol is like an Oracle in cost. There's plenty of time to get an engineer too. I'm working on an idea to have an Ironworks/Wall Street capitol since Oxford may not get built. A religion needs to be founded in the right spot.

    No Stonehenge! Nope.
     
  18. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    Oops. Did it again. I was giving a small settler map a trial with Asoka. My old time of 490 AD took a lot of effort and tries with Darius. Now Asoka finished at 480 AD on a test run. No academy. Never even considered it. Oxford did eventually get built in London. It was there. But my capitol, Delhi, was the Wall Street/Ironworks. Nothing special. 2 corn and a pigs. And 20 river tiles, all green and forested. After getting GPs the normal way for all needs, one city finished the National Epic and Park in an attempt for some late bulbs. Techs bulbed: biology, physics, electricity, computers and almost fusion. That last GP there was an artist. Argh.

    After replaceable parts path went to state property, then levees, ironworks and the corps next. Capitol cranked out the Spiral Minaret and Taj easily before the corps hit. Don't know where the idea for mixing state property and the corps came from ...

    Game submitted. I wonder what is possible on the bigger maps.
     
    Noble Zarkon likes this.

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