Worker -> Hasty Pyramids is an interesting play I haven't seen before. Could be more broadly useful for Spain (or Carthage), to get the super fast Pantheon+3 pop, I'll have to remember it.
No need to hide that in a spoiler if it's general discussion. I'm just using spoilers in case someone wants to try the turn 0 save without seeing the future.
I think the civ for a worker-pyramids opening would be India since the free pantheon overcome the loss from skipping shrine and monument. Siam could work too.
So I trading a bunch of different stats here as it seemed interesting. After a bit more though I agree that moving towards the northern wine is better than settling on the copper if you are just going to make worker/buildings. You trade culture for production but then don't really do anything with the extra production. However these does make a wonder much more appealing.
First I tried pyramid to get the natural wonder. And while it is just possible it is so tight it seems like an unacceptable risk. The second CS border pop is onto the NW meaning anything going wrong messes everything up. Also having trying out worker first a few times I am liking it a lot less. You get extra food but at size 6 you don't do that much with it.
So that left me with one other option of shrine first then pyramids then monument. I couldn't rush build any of these without getting to tradition too early so I just bought a worker. (I think workers is still most cost efficient even with Bab but it is pretty close). I took god of all creation from the early shrine and it all lined up pretty well. I will be able to get a monopoly up super quick here, and even if it did need 5 you'd have the 3rd city up pretty quickly. Still behind in culture but I am at least producing more, 1 off pyramids and soon 2 off the 2nd monument so catching up more quickly. Pyramids also probably mean GE isn't slowed down anywhere near as much.
This did involve me replay the game start a number of times but I tried to do the same scouting path and no ruins makes it much easier. Main different is sometimes border pops to wheat and sometimes a forest. I think the differences were minor enough to not really matter.
If you wanted to do something really wild the first time I did this start my scout found the NW on T2 so you could take a long trek up to it, that is certainly safe from the CS but I'd guess it isn't worth the cost. And it certainly messes up things up enough it is very hard to tell.
I wouldn't grow past 6 pop for a while either way.
When both at 6 pop, the two approaches are actually tied for production. The hill pulls ahead after a well (which I'm guessing you invested), but the river gets the engineer a lot earlier.
I think the river approach does connect the wine faster. The second policy is faster for 1 science per turn, and growing earlier gives science. I also went wheel second and built a council, but a hill settle with mining could have done that too. Late wine actually sells for less early copper (I only got 4 and 3 because it was all the AI had). You also don't have to spend gold on tiles.
I'm a sucker for early culture so I still favor the river, but its impressive how close the approaches are. I think they are going to diverge soon (I was lucky to get a very good CS quest).
I've joined the playthrough. I founded on turn 82 4th with God of the Sun, which is a fairly reliable founder with the monopoly and let me rush buy granaries, which are very strong with god of the sun. I went Apostolic into creativity. Only the Dutch founded on my continent, so I should be able to reform.
General thoughts on best reformer belief, given the playthrough limitations?
I picked God of the Open Sky. It’s an interesting pantheon in terms of faith. It’s not great at getting a religion, but eventually it becomes strong. My wine monopoly should provide enough faith.
It’s risky because I haven’t revealed pastures yet, but I want culture. Looking at all those open plains, it seems certain that there’ll be plenty of them. Right?
SpoilerQuests :
The good news is these quests. God this made me so happy, it’s been long since I had a faith ally and they are super strong. I’ve been wrecked by AI with faith allies so many times.
None of the AI I’ve met have Calendar, I’ve got pretty good production, and I think I can recover if I miss this wonder (early game the culture compensation prize is actually pretty good).
I also got a quest to denounce Persia, which I did. I had a quest to bully a CS for some gold, which I took so I could invest Temple of Artemis. I also bullied Brussels again for gold to buy a tile.
SpoilerFeels Good :
Monopoly and Artemis on the same turn. I actually used a calculator when I started it to figure out the fastest possible time I could get, while still using the artist as much as possible. For curiosity’s sake I saved the game the turn before, and the AI got Artemis 2 turns later.
I gift Lhasa my warrior, and I build then gift another one in a few turns. Then I build two archers to start clearing barb camps, then a settler.
Akkad goes there because it has access to 2 wine. After my workers connected the first two wine tiles, I realized there are only 6 copies in the world. Overall, I’d rather have 8. I also have only a single pasture for 2 horses.
It builds a council first. I'm targeting the hanging gardens, and I need science. My culture is way ahead already. I think I can build it by around turn 75. Reaching the classical era also will boost the yields of a potential faith CS ally. Hanging Gardens is why I value monument first so badly in the capital. I don't see how a build order such as worker first gets there.
SpoilerOverflow :
I build an archer here so I would be able to overflow production into a settler. I plan to clear that southern barb camp and put a city there.
SpoilerThe First Religion :
is not mine. Buddhism is probably Siam who gets first religion as expected. My prophet is born two turns later.
You can see Hanging Gardens being constructed. With a gold investment it needs 3 more turns.
I like the buy any GP with faith and get sci/cul/gold when they are used up. I generally don't plant anything but scientists so I don't think it generates that much less and the ability to buy 1-2 of every great person later is really powerful.
I picked God of the Open Sky. It’s an interesting pantheon in terms of faith. It’s not great at getting a religion, but eventually it becomes strong. My wine monopoly should provide enough faith.
It’s risky because I haven’t revealed pastures yet, but I want culture. Looking at all those open plains, it seems certain that there’ll be plenty of them. Right?
SpoilerQuests :
The good news is these quests. God this made me so happy, it’s been long since I had a faith ally and they are super strong. I’ve been wrecked by AI with faith allies so many times. View attachment 564926 View attachment 564927
None of the AI I’ve met have Calendar, I’ve got pretty good production, and I think I can recover if I miss this wonder (early game the culture compensation prize is actually pretty good).
I also got a quest to denounce Persia, which I did. I had a quest to bully a CS for some gold, which I took so I could invest Temple of Artemis. I also bullied Brussels again for gold to buy a tile.
SpoilerFeels Good :
Monopoly and Artemis on the same turn. I actually used a calculator when I started it to figure out the fastest possible time I could get, while still using the artist as much as possible. For curiosity’s sake I saved the game the turn before, and the AI got Artemis 2 turns later. View attachment 564928
I gift Lhasa my warrior, and I build then gift another one in a few turns. Then I build two archers to start clearing barb camps, then a settler.
Akkad goes there because it has access to 2 wine. After my workers connected the first two wine tiles, I realized there are only 6 copies in the world. Overall, I’d rather have 8. I also have only a single pasture for 2 horses.
It builds a council first. I'm targeting the hanging gardens, and I need science. My culture is way ahead already. I think I can build it by around turn 75. Reaching the classical era also will boost the yields of a potential faith CS ally. Hanging Gardens is why I value monument first so badly in the capital. I don't see how a build order such as worker first gets there.
SpoilerOverflow :
I build an archer here so I would be able to overflow production into a settler. I plan to clear that southern barb camp and put a city there. View attachment 564929
SpoilerThe First Religion :
is not mine. Buddhism is probably Siam who gets first religion as expected. My prophet is born two turns later. View attachment 564930
You can see Hanging Gardens being constructed. With a gold investment it needs 3 more turns.
I like religions that give buffs without having to spend more faith on buildings so food/production/science. With tradition I want huge cities and food helps most with that, with a bit of synergy from Babylon as you will run even more specialists than normal
For the founder I think food/culture on spread is easily the best most of the time and even more so here. You have lot of CS and other players to spread it to some of which are likely to not have their own religion. It turns faith pretty directly into culture which is amazing when you have so much faith production.
I took Apostolic Tradition. It's a very good belief when your faith is high and provides culture. As Babylon I have naturally good science and I need culture to help balance that. I also considered Divine Inheritance.
I took mastery. It gives a good mix of yields,mostly culture now but science later on. It pairs really well with the large amounts of food that apostolic can generate, and the hanging gardens.
I do successfully build the Hanging Gardens next turn.
For me, this marks the end of the very early game. It's time to look at longer term strategies.
SpoilerTech Order :
Straight to education, not even taking mining before. My next goal is the university of sankore and it's extremely important. I want to start building it by turn 110 in order to beat the AI to it. The AI usually doesn't rush education (they tend to take Theology first).
I want a 4th city so I start a settler in my 3rd city, but I'm not planting it until after I discover education. New cities hurt your immediate culture and science a lot.
SpoilerOnly So Lucky With CS Quests :
Three CS had targeted that camp but I miss by just a couple turns. It's okay, I've already done really well with CS.
SpoilerGreat People and Golden Ages :
I got a golden age after discovering writing. The Great Scientist made an academy, and my first engineer made a manufactory. This artist makes a great work, I finish tradition at turn 92.
I used two missionaries to spread my religion to nearby CS and Akkad. This gets some pressure going and gives yields for apostolic. It stops influence decay in the city states.I don't think need to send a missionary to Dur yet, it has no specialists. I need to enhance quickly
SpoilerParthenon :
I think this is Siam, usually the civ with great library builds it. The AI on my continent appear to be a bunch of losers, no wonders at all and reaching the next era long after the other continents do.
I'm rushing philosophy and saving gold to invest in the temples. They are an important building normally, but they also boost wine. I also built the scrivener's office for faith. The 3rd religion was Daoism, which has to be China. The same turn islam was founded, most likely Morocco. Persia gets a religion and takes mosques. Unfortunate, he also likes Fealty so he will get really high religious pressure and presents a competitor.
Mosques being taken makes Sankore even more important.After unlocking philosophy I considered Oracle and decided against it. It's very high risk, I'm light on production, and the wonder isn't necessary to my gameplan.
SpoilerSpeed Racer AI :
Three AI reach medieval era on turn 102, that's fast. One of them build the Oracle, I would have missed it.
You can see France's settler coming. My army is small but I can upgrade the archers to bowmen if a war happens. I also have two CS allies who would help.
SpoilerA Snowballing Moroco? :
Yikes. Islam reformed and enhanced this turn. It's most likely Morocco. That's so fast, he shouldn't even have many kasbah built yet
The french settler is targeting that forest near the fish and coral. I can tell by clicking my settler and seeing the recommended city locations. The AI usually targets those. I can block that settle by purchasing a tile next to the city. Count 3 tiles away from cities and city states to see if a city can be placed, the AI will plant cities in the tiniest most annoying places.
SpoilerMedieval Era :
Turn 108, not bad. The medieval era scales CS yields, most notably culture, which goes from a pathetic 3 to 10. I have 3 culture allies. I also plant Nippuer.
I start University of Sankore and research mining since it's the only tech possible LOL. Enhance next turn, what beliefs to take?
I took Apostolic Tradition. It's a very good belief when your faith is high and provides culture. As Babylon I have naturally good science and I need culture to help balance that. I also considered Divine Inheritance.
I took mastery. It gives a good mix of yields,mostly culture now but science later on. It pairs really well with the large amounts of food that apostolic can generate, and the hanging gardens. View attachment 565244
I do successfully build the Hanging Gardens next turn.
For me, this marks the end of the very early game. It's time to look at longer term strategies.
SpoilerTech Order :
Straight to education, not even taking mining before. My next goal is the university of sankore and it's extremely important. I want to start building it by turn 110 in order to beat the AI to it. The AI usually doesn't rush education (they tend to take Theology first). View attachment 565245
I want a 4th city so I start a settler in my 3rd city, but I'm not planting it until after I discover education. New cities hurt your immediate culture and science a lot.
SpoilerOnly So Lucky With CS Quests :
Three CS had targeted that camp but I miss by just a couple turns. It's okay, I've already done really well with CS. View attachment 565246
SpoilerGreat People and Golden Ages :
I got a golden age after discovering writing. The Great Scientist made an academy, and my first engineer made a manufactory. This artist makes a great work, I finish tradition at turn 92. View attachment 565247
I used two missionaries to spread my religion to nearby CS and Akkad. This gets some pressure going and gives yields for apostolic. It stops influence decay in the city states.I don't think need to send a missionary to Dur yet, it has no specialists. I need to enhance quickly
SpoilerParthenon :
I think this is Siam, usually the civ with great library builds it. The AI on my continent appear to be a bunch of losers, no wonders at all and reaching the next era long after the other continents do. View attachment 565248
I'm rushing philosophy and saving gold to invest in the temples. They are an important building normally, but they also boost wine. I also built the scrivener's office for faith. The 3rd religion was Daoism, which has to be China. The same turn islam was founded, most likely Morocco. Persia gets a religion and takes mosques. Unfortunate, he also likes Fealty so he will get really high religious pressure and presents a competitor.
Mosques being taken makes Sankore even more important.After unlocking philosophy I considered Oracle and decided against it. It's very high risk, I'm light on production, and the wonder isn't necessary to my gameplan.
SpoilerSpeed Racer AI :
Three AI reach medieval era on turn 102, that's fast. One of them build the Oracle, I would have missed it. View attachment 565249
You can see France's settler coming. My army is small but I can upgrade the archers to bowmen if a war happens. I also have two CS allies who would help.
SpoilerA Snowballing Moroco? :
Yikes. Islam reformed and enhanced this turn. It's most likely Morocco. That's so fast, he shouldn't even have many kasbah built yet View attachment 565250
The french settler is targeting that forest near the fish and coral. I can tell by clicking my settler and seeing the recommended city locations. The AI usually targets those. I can block that settle by purchasing a tile next to the city. Count 3 tiles away from cities and city states to see if a city can be placed, the AI will plant cities in the tiniest most annoying places.
SpoilerMedieval Era :
Turn 108, not bad. The medieval era scales CS yields, most notably culture, which goes from a pathetic 3 to 10. I have 3 culture allies. I also plant Nippuer. View attachment 565251
I start University of Sankore and research mining since it's the only tech possible LOL. Enhance next turn, what beliefs to take?
I assume you want the +4/+4 enhancer as you planted the engineer. I'd like any of the sci/pro/food religions left if there are any left I guess the faith purchase buildings are more appealing if you took fealty? I'd probably want a science one even though we are Babylon it is hard to have too much science.
I finished tradition on T100 so a bit behind but not that much, I also have a 4th city. Where are you going to plant your 4th city, I guess east of Lhasa? I don't really see another good spot unless you only plan on making 3 or attacking someone?
It is interesting having all the powerful civs so far away. It does mean we are pretty safe from attack but it also makes it much harder to tell what wonders are save. We both have a bunch of wonders but very different ones
I assume you want the +4/+4 enhancer as you planted the engineer. I'd like any of the sci/pro/food religions left if there are any left I guess the faith purchase buildings are more appealing if you took fealty? I'd probably want a science one even though we are Babylon it is hard to have too much science.
I finished tradition on T100 so a bit behind but not that much, I also have a 4th city. Where are you going to plant your 4th city, I guess east of Lhasa? I don't really see another good spot unless you only plan on making 3 or attacking someone?
It is interesting having all the powerful civs so far away. It does mean we are pretty safe from attack but it also makes it much harder to tell what wonders are save. We both have a bunch of wonders but very different ones
The +4/+4 science and faith is a reformation belief, not enhancer.
SpoilerFealty or Artistry? :
I thought about this question a lot in prep for the game. I'm taking artistry and I don't really the see value in fealty.
I'm second to enhance and the options are pretty good. Islam has the food for each follower belief and cooperation, I think I would take mandirs instead of it anyways. I'm considering all of: Thrift, Cathedrals, Mandirs, Scholarship, Synagogues and Diligence.
I like how flexible Babylon feels here, lots of different approaches to religion all feel viable. I actually haven't picked yet, I wanted to think about it overnight lol. The enhancer belief choice is really obvious IMO.
The +4/+4 science and faith is a reformation belief, not enhancer.
SpoilerFealty or Artistry? :
I thought about this question a lot in prep for the game. I'm taking artistry and I don't really the see value in fealty.
I'm second to enhance and the options are pretty good. Islam has the food for each follower belief and cooperation, I think I would take mandirs instead of it anyways. I'm considering all of: Thrift, Cathedrals, Mandirs, Scholarship, Synagogues and Diligence.
I like how flexible Babylon feels here, lots of different approaches to religion all feel viable. I actually haven't picked yet, I wanted to think about it overnight lol. The enhancer belief choice is really obvious IMO.
It really isn't obvious to me all of the enhancers seem pretty unexciting to me. So much so I just spread my religion to a bunch of cities instead for the food/faith. Also means you can get the reformation a lot quicker
There is a really good enhancer belief I have in mind.
Spoiler:
Also I planted the engineer because there was no wonder available when he was born. I could have waited till Sankore, but that's like 20 turns, the tile earns 100 hammers by that point and upgrades future engineers.
I took food then the +1 per specialist you have second. I took the 3 per GP and buy any GP reformation and the +1 faith/gold per 10 enhancer but I'm not hugely excited by it despite having lots of followers.
I have been allies to 3-4 Cs most of the game so I guess yes. Enough so I'm trying out statecraft. Which is fine much like fealty and artistry.
I took food then the +1 per specialist you have second. I took the 3 per GP and buy any GP reformation and the +1 faith/gold per 10 enhancer but I'm not hugely excited by it despite having lots of followers.
I have been allies to 3-4 Cs most of the game so I guess yes. Enough so I'm trying out statecraft. Which is fine much like fealty and artistry.
It is pretty good and I've taken it before. I'm not sure it crushes the other options though. You are getting +14? GPP which is nice but they are also rather spread out. VS +20 gold/faith per turn which will scale up a bit over time. (And might well be less for you to start with as it depends how aggressively you've spread.). I guess I don't really know what a bunch of GPP are worth.
It is certainly better if you aren't really spreading your religion but here we have loads of targets to spread to and benefits in terms of food/culture and diplo relations.
It is pretty good and I've taken it before. I'm not sure it crushes the other options though. You are getting +14? GPP which is nice but they are also rather spread out. VS +20 gold/faith per turn which will scale up a bit over time. (And might well be less for you to start with as it depends how aggressively you've spread.). I guess I don't really know what a bunch of GPP are worth.
It is certainly better if you aren't really spreading your religion but here we have loads of targets to spread to and benefits in terms of food/culture and diplo relations.
I think Symbolism is generally the best peaceful option (it helps with the spreading because missionaries reduce existing religion by 15%) but Prophecy is also really strong. The policy requirement reduction can be clutch.
I played this save out to a point where I was 15 techs behind and abandoned the game so I'm interested to see how you do. I misplayed the early game though and didn't get Hanging Gardens. I'm growing more and more convinced that Hanging Gardens is THE key wonder for Tradition to get. I didn't get any wonders until University of Sankore.
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