Overhaul of early Tech Tree: Pottery

[Aldebaran1997]

After several games with a number of version of VP, I felt that early tech tree is very strict. I mean, unless I started on a neat-sized rich island, I always research Pottery first because of being able to produce settlers. And I felt it is quite unhealthy game design. So, I want to discuss with you guys.

My suggestion is: ability of producing settlers has to place on Agriculture and instead of producing settlers, Pottery discovers wheat like other bonus resources.

 

[Funak]

I never research pottery first, I'm not building settlers within the first 15 turns anyways, so no real point.

 

[ElliotS]

I go authority quite often, and thus normally leave pottery for 4th or 5th. Gotta get those Imperium bonuses and have spearmen.

 

[Owlbebach]

That depends on map settings, for example on standard speed you never take pottery 1st, most likely second (though taking it later than 3rd seems very unappealing to me), but on Epic speed you most likely want to take it first, or sometimes second, not later

 

[CrazyG]

The only situation I take pottery first is going for stonehenge, or maybe if I have a ton of wheat. Generally I want it within my first 3 techs though.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

It seems that this is a problem only for me. Well then. I forgot I always play super crowded unlike any others. I'm sorry.
But can I argue why only wheat is revealed at start unlike other bonus resources?

 

[Owlbebach]

It seems that this is a problem only for me. Well then. I forgot I always play super crowded unlike any others. I'm sorry.
But can I argue why only wheat is revealed at start unlike other bonus resources?

I usually play 15 civs on large map, so it is +50%. But ye, on Epic i go pottery first 90% of times, but i'm okay with it, i think its kinda normal

EDIT: anyway you want to get your cities up and running as fast as possible, not just because you lose land, but also because you lose production and everything else

 

[CrazyG]

It seems that this is a problem only for me. Well then. I forgot I always play super crowded unlike any others. I'm sorry.
But can I argue why only wheat is revealed at start unlike other bonus resources?

Because it takes no techs to improve, a farm can already be built with just agriculture. Also, many plains starts would seriously lack food if wheat wasn't revealed (and you don't know if it will be there or not)

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Because it takes no techs to improve, a farm can already be built with just agriculture. Also, many plains starts would seriously lack food if wheat wasn't revealed (and you don't know if it will be there or not)

But isn't that the point of bonus resources? Many tundra starts suffer food unless you reveal deer, and hill starts severely lack food if sheep wasn't revealed. Anyway, I got the point about improvement.

 

[Gazebo]

It seems that this is a problem only for me. Well then. I forgot I always play super crowded unlike any others. I'm sorry.
But can I argue why only wheat is revealed at start unlike other bonus resources?

Because the improvement that improves it is unlocked at agriculture. Wheat be the literal manna of early man, mon.

G

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Because the improvement that improves it is unlocked at agriculture. Wheat be the literal manna of early man, mon.

G

Yeah, I got it. Thx!

 

[Dawnpromise]

I'll agree that settlers being unlocked by tech kinda stymies the AI early on most games. I think it's more an issue of teaching the AI to better prioritize pottery then rather then making pottery even LESS worthwhile.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'd be ok either with lowering the science costs of researching pottery or with making settlers available from the very start.

 

[ShadedSkies]

I always pick it first and use the production overflow of an invested shrine/monument to get a settler out ASAP. There's always a wonder about to fall into a CS's border or resources that generate culture or a fantastic defensive location that the AI will just take otherwise or a particularly nasty barbarian camp. Everything else can wait.

 

[Deadstarre]

I always pick it first and use the production overflow of an invested shrine/monument to get a settler out ASAP. Everything else can wait.

Spoken like someone who knows how to win.

Pottery first is a no-brainer unless youre just trying to handicap yourself

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Spoken like someone who knows how to win.

Pottery first is a no-brainer unless youre just trying to handicap yourself

Don't be rude. You don't even concern other's game setting. Is it no-brainer to go pottery first if someone play with very crowd major civs and epic or marathon speed? Because I'm doing so.

 

[CrazyG]

I always pick it first and use the production overflow of an invested shrine/monument to get a settler out ASAP. There's always a wonder about to fall into a CS's border or resources that generate culture or a fantastic defensive location that the AI will just take otherwise or a particularly nasty barbarian camp. Everything else can wait.

About what turn do you normally start/finish that settler?

 

[ShadedSkies]

About what turn do you normally start/finish that settler?

Never checked, but it's almost always right before the AI settles their second city on Immortal. If my Warrior/Pathfinder is free I usually send one of them to intercept their first settler and buy some extra time, the AI doesn't fight back when escorting a unit. The early game barbarians keep them too busy to march on your capital so you never have to worry about retaliation.

I can't think of any other tech I'd rather take. Archers are so weak, if you have some or not it won't stop the barbarians from harassing you any better than regular warriors and they definitely can't clear camps. Councils are nice, but you can bounce back pretty easily with a 2nd city in place since the science penalty is feeble early on. Mining is usually my 2nd tech and I love it, even though Wells won't do much before 5pop an improved mine or two works wonders for making more settlers. Seeing horses is just, no. As your first tech? No. The 5 things every civ needs ASAP are military units, a shrine, a monument, a worker and settlers, and 4 of those are available right off the bat.

 

[tu_79]

I take my time before settling and I don't feel it's so bad. I usually take pottery 2nd or 3rd, depending on how strong is my capital terrain. Units, yes, almost mandatory with all those barbs. But a strong capital is able to produce faster settlers while providing better yields and advancing faster through techs and policies. Only faith is hurted.

Edit. China and Carthage get pottery first, almost always. Those benefit too much from settling to delay it.

 

[CrazyG]

I do use fast settlers sometimes (especially for China, Carthage and Spain) but I don't see any compelling reason to always do it with every civ.

I can't think of any other tech I'd rather take. Archers are so weak, if you have some or not it won't stop the barbarians from harassing you any better than regular warriors and they definitely can't clear camps

Archers are a lot stronger than warriors and more than capable of clearing camps. If I'm taking Authority I want access to a better military unit ASAP rather than a second city.