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Overlords - A WW2 Scenario Based on Imperialism II

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by CurtSibling, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    As ever Curt, I'm sure this will be great fun to play.

    Can I offer some constructive criticism on tank progression with your units? At this scale you probably want to represent the key tank types for each nation during the course of the war. As an example I would have:

    Pz II --- Pz III short barrel ---- Pz IV long barrel --- Panther as the German progression, and maybe throw in very expensive heavies like the Tiger I and II as parallel unit choices. For the other nations:

    Brit: Cruiser 1/2 or 3 ---- Crusader ----- Sherman or Cromwell ----- Comet with Infantry tanks like the Matilda and Churchill as your expensive extra units

    US: M3 light ---- M3 Medium ----- M4 ----- M26
    USSR: T-26 or BT5/7 ----- T-34/41 ----- T-34-85 ---- T-44 or T-54. KV-1 and IS-2 as extras
     
  2. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Hi, Gareth!
    The current list of tanks follow the following techs, and I can swap some out if you think the suggestions are more suitable.
    I have generic light (T26) and medium (Sherman) to give the less armor-orientated factions something to build, and saves unit duplication.

    The table below shows the techs and tanks that each civ has on the roster.

    Mobile Warfare I, 4,-1, Cmb, Gun, 2, 0 ; Hor 36 <Light Tank>
    Mobile Warfare II, 4,-2, Hor, nil, 2, 0 ; Chi 11 <Armored Infantry>
    Mobile Warfare III, 5,-2, Chi, MP, 2, 0 ; Ldr 42 <Medium Tank>
    Mobile Warfare IV, 6,-2, Ldr, Roc, 2, 0 ; Tac 81 <1944-Era Tank>
    Mobile Warfare V, 7,-2, Tac, Bro, 3, 0 ; Mob 53 <1945-Era Tank>

    LVT (Mobile Warfare II)
    M3 Lee (Mobile Warfare I)
    M4 Sherman (Mobile Warfare III)
    M24 Chaffee (Mobile Warfare IV)
    M26 Pershing (Mobile Warfare V)


    (I think the US tank progression is OK? The Chaffee fills the mobile artillery requirement, and LVT is to give some extra city storming power to the USMC.)

    Matilda II (Mobile Warfare I)
    Churchill (Mobile Warfare II)
    Comet (Mobile Warfare IV)
    Centurion (Mobile Warfare V)


    (Brits have access to generic Allied Sherman at Mobile Warfare III. No unit slots left to add more armour, so what is the more important tank? Matilda or Cruiser 2/3 - Churchill or Crusader?)

    T-34 (Mobile Warfare I)
    KV-1 (Mobile Warfare II)
    IS-2 (Mobile Warfare III)
    Guards IS-2 (Mobile Warfare III)
    IS-3 (Mobile Warfare IV)
    ISU-152 (Mobile Warfare V)


    (Already have the T-26 as generic light tank...Drop the IS-3 and Provide a T-34 upgrade?)

    Panzer IV (Wehrmacht)
    Panther (Mobile Warfare II)
    Tiger (Mobile Warfare III)
    Tiger II (Mobile Warfare IV)
    Jagdtiger (Mobile Warfare V)
    Panzer E-50 (Mobile Warfare V)


    (Perhaps move the PzIV to Mobile Warfare II, and have the PzIII as the starting tank? Move all tanks one tech up, and eliminate JagdTiger?)

    Type-3 Chi-Nu (Mobile Warfare III)
    (Japan has only one unique tank, as their strength is in navies and infantry. They can build the light tank, and SP gun with the right tech.)
     
  3. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    I would lose the Chaffee - it was specifically a light tank to replace the M3 and M5 lights, and not the M4s that made up the bulk of US armour. I guess an M4A3E8 would be a sensible replacement, or something like an M36 if you want a tank destroyer to illustrate the US dogma of using tanks to attack infantry and fortifications, and TDs to attack tanks.

    Understand the access to the M4; makes sense. You have to remember that the British adhered to a doctrine of having the bulk of their tank forces (armoured divisions and brigades) made up of cruiser tanks, with heavily armoured, slow infantry tanks assigned to infantry Tank Brigades. There were far more cruisers than infantry tanks (with the exception of the Valentine, which was used to make up the numbers in 41 as it was the only decent British tank at the time). Bearing all this in mind, I would have:

    Cruiser III (Mobile Warfare I)
    Crusader III or Cromwell (Mobile Warfare II)


    Comet and Centurion make sense for IV and V

    Gotcha about the T-34. As you say I would include the T-34-85 as it was such an important upgrade to the Soviet tank forces:

    T-34 (Mobile Warfare I)
    KV-1 (Mobile Warfare II)
    T-35-85 (Mobile Warfare III)
    Guards IS-2 (Mobile Warfare III)
    IS-2 (Mobile Warfare IV)
    IS-3 or T-54 (Mobile Warfare V)


    This one is a little out of whack. To make the German tech tree equivalent to the Allies:

    Panzer III short 37mm (Wehrmacht)
    Panzer IV long 75mm (Mobile Warfare II)
    Tiger (Mobile Warfare III)
    Panther (Mobile Warfare IV)
    Tiger II (Mobile Warfare V)
    JagdPanther or E50 if you give the Russians the T-54 (Mobile Warfare V)

    Makes sense.
     
  4. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Thanks!
    Great advice, Gareth...I will make some changes based on the pointers here. :)

    All advice here is cool, and I will implement...Just some comments on the Brit tanks...

    Was going to propose this - Give the Crusader III to Mobile Warfare I - This is a major tank and played a big part in North Africa.

    I might keep the Churchill in Mobile Warfare II - It's a famous armour, serving even after WW2. Both these types had over 5000 units built - It's a compromise, based on slots being full...

    Agreed the Crusader III is more important than the Matilda II, so I will change them out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  5. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Hi, guys...A new preview version of Overlords for you.

    Made some map adjustments, fixed the coastal/hydro settings for each city, and implemented some changes as suggested on the thread...
    Main job now is the events, adding in all the city captures for each civ, and then redoing the events to be played as each civ...Soviet, Allied, Axis versions, etc.

    Please discard old folder contents and replace with this zip's contents...
     

    Attached Files:

  6. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Current unit roster:

    Units.png

    Workers
    Engineers
    Nationalist Army
    GIs
    US Airborne
    US Marines
    Infantry
    Rifleman
    Imperial Marines
    Partisans
    Paratroopers
    Commandos
    Red Army
    Assault Troops
    Red Guards
    Grenadiers
    Fallschirmjagers
    Waffen SS
    Finnish Army
    Italian Army
    Romanian Army
    Imperial Army
    SAS Squad
    WW1 Artillery
    Field Artillery
    Howitzer
    SP Artillery
    Freighter
    Civilian Liner
    Troop Ship
    Liberty Ship
    Submarine
    Type XXI U-Boat
    MBT
    Destroyer
    WW1 Cruiser
    AA Cruiser
    Battlecruiser
    WW1 Battleship
    Battleship
    US Battleship
    Super Battleship
    Escort Carrier
    Carrier
    V2 Missile
    Atomic Bomb
    Katyusha
    Spy
    MRL Truck
    Supply Truck
    Motorized Troops
    Armored Infantry
    Light Tank
    Medium Tank
    AA Battery
    AA Emplacement
    AA Rocket Battery
    Fighter
    Jet Fighter
    Bomber
    Heavy Bomber
    Heavy Bomber
    AVG Warhawk
    P-38 Lightning
    P-47 Thunderbolt
    P-51 Mustang
    P-80 Shooting Star
    F6F Hellcat
    B-17 Fortress
    B-29 Super Fortress
    Hurricane
    Spitfire
    Beaufighter
    Mosquito
    Typhoon
    Meteor
    Wellington
    Lancaster
    I-16
    La-5
    Yak-3
    MiG-9
    Il-2 Sturmovik
    Pe-2
    TB-3
    Bf-109
    Fw-190
    Me-262 Schwalbe
    Bf-110
    Do-335 Pfeil
    Ju-87 Stuka
    Hs-129
    Ju-88
    Ar-234 Blitz
    A6m Zero
    Ki-61 Hien
    Ki-84 Hayate
    N9Y Kikka
    D3A
    D4y
    Ki-67 Hiryu
    J8M Shusui
    M3 Lee
    LVT
    M4 Sherman
    M36 Jackson
    M26 Pershing
    Crusader
    Churchill
    Comet
    Centurion
    T-34
    KV-1
    T-34-85
    IS-2
    Guards IS-2
    T-54
    Type-3 Chi-Nu
    Panzergrenadiers
    Panzer III
    Panzer IV
    Tiger
    Panther
    Tiger II
    Panzer E50
     
  7. JPetroski

    JPetroski Chieftain

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    Just curious - are you under the impression that larger maps can be made than the gigamaps currently available? If so, how would one go about creating one? Whenever I try to use any of the map editing software I get error messages stating that the maximum size has been reached?

    I ask because if there is truly no maximum, for Europe at least it would be possible to have an enormous map pretty much instantly by using Harlan's old bitmap of Europe and some of the map conversion software. I know that's not much help to you for a world map however.
     
  8. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    Agreed about both the Crusader (use a mk 1 or II) and Churchill. In terms of volumes of tanks produced its hard to deny the Valentine a slot; it's this or a Crusader I guess
     
  9. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    I read that ToTPP had a map limit of 32,767 tiles...I assume that is bigger than anything out there?
     
  10. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Hi, Gareth...
    In your opinion, what single Brit tank is best for the 1941-42 era?

    I cannot move any units or remove slots at this stage, with units all over the map. :)
     
  11. JPetroski

    JPetroski Chieftain

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    No, unfortunately that's the same as it has been for years :(

    Although we really are limited to 131,068 given that we could use all 4 maps and have each represent a corner. The old problem of how to move units from one map to the next has been solved via lua (there is no need, for example, to reverse image the maps to have them show up in the "correct" spot anymore). I am currently building a map of the eastern US to match up (kind of sort of) with McMonkey's Europe map for a WW2 scenario of my own using this method and I suppose one could divide the earth into quadrants instead if they were so inclined (it would be quite the undertaking).

    But anyway, that's enough hijacking of your thread.
     
  12. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    That's a fairly straightforward one to answer: The Valentine was a small, low target, was reliable mechanically and very well armoured; it shared the same outdated (by 41-42) 2-pdr gun as the Crusader but was only bettered by the latter in terms of the Crusader's excellent Christie-based suspension which gave the Crusader unrivaled speed and mobility. Valentine was the Brit's best tank in that era.

    Another comment about the units Ciaran: You've used a pre-Dreadnought (ie pre-1907) battleship pic for the 'WW1 battleship' unit, and a WW1 BB pic for the 'battleship unit'. None of the naval powers was seriously using pre-dreadnoughts in action during WW2. Also, why have you given the US a unique (presumably better?) BB unit? I understand allowing the US and Japan to build Iowa / Yamato super dreadnoughts, but the US battleship fleet at the start of the war was largely converted old WW1 vessels. Probably the only country deserving a special BB unit prior to the Iowa/Yamato classes would be Germany, whose Bismark class was streets ahead of everything else.
     
  13. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    I should swap out the Crusader for the Valentine, but I'd like to use both...In which case, check out what I propose below...

    On looking at the unit list, I could drop the WW1 cruiser and WW1 BB units and move everything along two slots, freeing up some room after the SP gun for the Valentine and something else. (suggestions welcome!)
    It might mean some map editing on a somewhat tiresome scale - No-one ever makes these suggestions until the map has hundreds of units laid out...;) But what the heck, I want to make this one right, and your
    excellent suggestions are very welcome, so I will do it...:)

    So....Perhaps you can help me with something on this one, Gareth...? (no art work required, just advice and pointers.)

    Could you suggest (bearing in mind the dropping of the WW1 units) the ships you think would make sense for what naval units remain, even changing out what ships you don't think work.
    Also, perhaps picking out some replacement units from PNG unit compendiums? I can cut and paste in what units you determine...That would be of great help, good sir. :D
     
  14. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Made some changes, based on Gareth's suggestions...Dropped illogical units like WW1 ships, and streamlined the naval options, while keeping a varied/useful roster...
    Should the Brit Escort carrier be swapped out for an armed merchantman, or something along those lines?
    Added infantry tanks like the famous Matilda/Churchill/Valentine into their own type. Tough, slow movers to protect infantry stacks. Gives Brit players a better tactical choice...
    Notice the little soldier in the turret, to denote Infantry Tanks. :)

    If Gareth (or anyone) can give his viewpoint on the changes, I would be grateful...List of unit names under the GFX.

    Overlord_Units 3b.png

    Workers
    Engineers
    Nationalist Army
    GIs
    US Airborne
    US Marines
    Infantry
    Rifleman
    Imperial Marines
    Partisans
    Paratroopers
    Commandos
    Red Army
    Assault Troops
    Red Guards
    Grenadiers
    Fallschirmjagers
    Waffen SS
    Finnish Army
    Italian Army
    Romanian Army
    Imperial Army
    SAS Squad
    WW1 Artillery
    Field Artillery
    Howitzer
    SP Artillery
    Matilda
    Churchill
    Freighter
    Civilian Liner
    Troop Ship
    Liberty Ship
    Submarine
    Type XXI U-Boat
    MBT
    Destroyer
    AA Cruiser
    Heavy Crusier
    Battlecruiser
    Battleship
    Super Battleship
    Escort Carrier
    Carrier
    V2 Missile
    Atomic Bomb
    Katyusha
    Spy
    MRL Truck
    Supply Truck
    Motorized Troops
    Armored Infantry
    Light Tank
    Medium Tank
    AA Battery
    AA Emplacement
    AA Rocket Battery
    Fighter
    Jet Fighter
    Bomber
    Heavy Bomber
    Heavy Bomber
    AVG Warhawk
    P-38 Lightning
    P-47 Thunderbolt
    P-51 Mustang
    P-80 Shooting Star
    F6F Hellcat
    B-17 Fortress
    B-29 Super Fortress
    Hurricane
    Spitfire
    Beaufighter
    Mosquito
    Typhoon
    Meteor
    Wellington
    Lancaster
    I-16
    La-5
    Yak-3
    MiG-9
    Il-2 Sturmovik
    Pe-2
    TB-3
    Bf-109
    Fw-190
    Me-262 Schwalbe
    Bf-110
    Do-335 Pfeil
    Ju-87 Stuka
    Hs-129
    Ju-88
    Ar-234 Blitz
    A6m Zero
    Ki-61 Hien
    Ki-84 Hayate
    N9Y Kikka
    D3A
    D4y
    Ki-67 Hiryu
    J8M Shusui
    M3 Lee
    LVT
    M4 Sherman
    M36 Jackson
    M26 Pershing
    Valentine
    Crusader
    Comet
    Centurion
    T-34
    KV-1
    T-34-85
    IS-2
    Guards IS-2
    T-54
    Type-3 Chi-Nu
    Panzergrenadiers
    Panzer III
    Panzer IV
    Tiger
    Panther
    Tiger II
    Panzer E50
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019 at 5:35 AM
  15. JPetroski

    JPetroski Chieftain

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    I'm really looking forward to playing this one :thumbsup:

    I guess if Gareth is going to help with the tanks I'll chime in about the planes since they've consumed my civ2 time for the past few years. To help with this, could you please give your rationale behind aircraft choices in general, but specifically for the Germans? What I mean by that is what role do you envision the player using each aircraft for? (what differentiates a fighter from a heavy fighter from a jet fighter from a ground attack from a bomber from a jet bomber etc -- I'm not asking for specific input on each specific plane, but the class of plane in general if that makes sense).

    I'm specifically curious about the Me110 and Do-335. What should a player expect to do with these units? I would think they might be a good place to trim if you needed other units, based on the other aircraft selections you have available. Are they simply escort fighters for the Germans? If so, the Me110 wasn't effective in the role and I think you might free up some space by simply eliminating it.

    I'd also suggest that the Fw190D9 or Ta152 might be a good tier III fighter between the Fw190A series you have there and the Me262. A player might have to decide if they want numerous Ta152s that are good all around aircraft, or fewer 262s that are very powerful? It seems that many other countries have 4 tiers of progressively better fighters except for the Germans who only have three (Me109, Fw190, Me262).
     
  16. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Hi there! :)
    I try to avoid using multiple types of the same unit, only doing this with the T-34, as it was a major design.
    I wanted to have famous/distinct types of WW2 units, also giving the opportunity to explore some what-ifs...

    Regarding the units, as mentioned, my rationale is to represent major types of aircraft of WW2, while acknowledging CIV2 limits (even with ToTPP), and not replicating the same type.
    The Me-110 is an escort, and heavy fighter, intended to cover low-defence bombers, but also act as a Jabo. The Do-335 is the replacement. The Hs-129 is intended to step in and blast
    tanks, like the historical plane, but I give the player the chance to go all out and use it in numbers, and see how it fares. The rest of the roster is what you expect - Bombers like the Ju-88
    can be used, or the Axis heavy can be researched and built...The Arado Blitz can be used as the late game tactical unit killer, also...If the player chooses.

    Heavy fighters act like bombers but stay over the target, and can stand their ground..
    The single turn fighters act in the usual manner, jumping in, killing air units, and getting back out.
     
  17. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    @Fairline

    I am also wondering if the Brit Escort Carrier can be swapped for a KGV battleship, as it was the most modern Brit BB, and was in many battles in WW2...What do you think?
     
  18. JPetroski

    JPetroski Chieftain

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    That makes sense. I would argue that the difference between an A-series 190 and D-series or Ta152 is very similar to the T-34's major design differences you mentioned. They weren't like the 109s where more and more was eeked out of obsolete airframes; the aircraft themselves were dramatically altered to good effect. I suppose if you're just saying "the 190 represents them all" then that is all well and good. It's just worth noting that they're two very different airframes that are from mid-1941 and late-1944 respectively.

    I would point out that the Me110 failed completely in its intended role, so if you needed another space, I think it would be a candidate to cut. A major issue for the Luftwaffe early war was their lack of good strategic bombers and fighters that could properly escort them. Later airframes added drop tanks and high alt performance so they could have theoretically filled the escort role well, but then there really wasn't the resources for that at that point.

    I'm away from my pc and cant recall, but what year does this start in? 1940? It's a daunting task to try and flesh out a unit roster for the whole world over 5 or 6 years so I dont envy you
    I thi k you've done a fine job but it's fun to discuss anyway :)
     
  19. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    @JPetroski
    I know what you mean with the Fw-190 and Ta-152, the late war plane is a cool ariframe, and I loved the models in my Airfix days..:)
    And I totally agree, the Me-110 was a crap concept that ended up with a mediocre multirole plane. But it still was made in 1000s and
    did find it's place as a night-time bomber-killer...So, I am inclined to keep it, as in the CIV2 world, it might get a better fate...;)

    In this scen, I try to mix famous units with generic types...I wish we could have a ton more unit slots from ToTPP, so we could make
    full use of Gareth's splendid work. Given what we do have, I want to have that board game vibe with well-known units that the player
    can make use of, or reject in favour of a different mix of researched later types...

    While the Me-110 is not a super plane, it can be passed over for the more capable Pfeil! The Do-335 was a potentially powerful ground
    attack and intercept machine,with very good speed, and later variants had some serious wing-mounted firepower. I wanted to reflect this.

    Geek time: I saw one for real in the Chantilly aero museum...Here is a google image of the same guy I was next to...:D

    Notice the Blitz and another rare bird, the He-218 behind this twin prop monster...!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019 at 9:49 AM
  20. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    The last civ I'd give an extra tank slot to would be the Brits; for a large part of the war their tanks were crap :) Toss a coin over the Valentine or Crusader Ciaran...

    As for naval units: destroyer, light cruiser, heavy cruiser, battleship, Yamato/Iowa super BB should be the slots imho. There is a case for a generic WW1-era BB and later super dreadnought BB as separate slots, as you have currently; there was a distinct qualitative improvement from an R-Class BB to a KGV class BB for example. Again, I don't think the Brits should get an extra unit over anyone else. Perhaps Germany should get a unique Bismarck class BB.

    I would keep the escort carrier (for both UK and US btw) as this was a key component in the battle of the Atlantic victory. The ability of the US shipyards to churn the things out was remarkable. The downside of this is stopping the player using them as regular aircraft carriers; perhaps give them just one a/c slot and make them cheap? There is a case for long range maritime anti-sub attack aircraft unit for the US, UK and (anti-shipping a/c) for Germany as these were also key factors in winning the Battle of the Atlantic. If not, then an improved destroyer researchable by UK and US to reflect the massive improvements in Asdic during the War, and the huge impact that had on defeating Doenitz's wolfpacks.

    Looks like John's got the aircraft covered :)

    You don't have enough slots, I realise, but there should probably be an infantry upgrade for each civ and lose the lorried infantry. Japan should probably have a marine (SNLF) unit as well.. damn you probably need another 10 unit slots :) Some of these might be freed up by rationalising some of the other units you have. I would lose the 4 artillery slots and have field / heavy / spg. Lose the multitude of generic aircaft, especially the jet aircraft. The PT boat could go, and do you really need 4 maritime transports? one general transport plus a US/UK Liberty ship or LST to represent their unique seaborne invasion ability would suffice maybe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 at 1:34 PM

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