Overpowered catapult?

[DrewBledsoe]

Historically its mostly a load of rubbish, In terms of the defender getting to pick which unit defends, its also a load of rubbish....e.g.

Commander: Horse Archers, use your superior speed and mobility to go and attack those archers on the right flank.
Horse Archer Captain: We can't sir, the spearmen will intercept us.
C: Well outflank them, that's why you have horses
HAC: We can't sir, the spearmen will intercept.
C: Well attack the axes on the left flank then.
HAC: We can't sir, the spearmen will intercept.
C: They seem incredibly versatile these super spearmen, do we have any of our own?
HAC: Yes sir.
C: Well call up their captain.
HAC: Yes sir
.......
C: Well man, take your spearmen and attack those archers on the right flank.
Spearmen Captain: We can't sir, the axemen will intercept.
C: GUAR....No don't bother...I give up, lets go home and build that Temple of Artemis thingie instead......
SC: But we don't have any marble sir, that's why we came here...
C: You really are pushing it you know.........


It's all there because when CIV IV was designed, someone decided that it should be much, much easier to defend than attack, which wasn't really the case in previous versions...(well it was but not so pronounced)..

I can only guess that they then realised it was actually far too difficult to attack, without wholsale suicide, therefore cats, and cannons were introduced with their current role (and later trebs with warlords, when it was realised that it was still to difficult to fight an offensive without massive losses in the middle ages)

Personally I'd like to see some kind of promotion made available to troops (say available to lvl 5 units and above) that allows them to select which unit in a stack they wished to attack.....but maybe that's just me.

 

[LucyDuke]

Personally I'd like to see some kind of promotion made available to troops (say available to lvl 5 units and above) that allows them to select which unit in a stack they wished to attack.....but maybe that's just me.

I love that idea. The objection I was going to make was that that would be complete overkill for the attacker, a horse archer (or whatever) could ignore the fact that there are 10 spearmen defending the target archer (or whatever), which wouldn't feel right. OTOH, if it's only available to level 5 and above, there are going to be so few of them that it's hardly overwhelming. As long as there is a provision that you can't touch non-combat units until the entire stack has been taken down (no picking on the escorted GA), it seems completely reasonable.

 

[Elras]

> Originally Posted by DrewBledsoe View Post
> Personally I'd like to see some kind of promotion made available to troops (say > available to lvl 5 units and above) that allows them to select which unit in a
> stack they wished to attack.....but maybe that's just me.

A Sniper/Sharpshooter/Assasin Promotion? Perhaps for the spy unit?

Loads of unit specific promotions required in Civ4 IMHO. Esp for Air Units.

If the Catapult is overpowered then the Trebuchet is Superman..it
simply eats through city defenders.

Cheers
Elras

 

[GenocideAlive]

It certainly is your problem with multiplayer. No one else was complaining. Perhaps that's what Quagga was referring to?

Apparently you have the memory of a goldfish.

I think catapults should have some kind of penalty when defending (other than no defensive bonus). Or catapults should defend last, no matter what

Catapults should be captured instantly on defense, and every attack on a stack of units with catapults in them should take 5% of their health, and siege attacks -10%.

Catapults should really be strength 4. Strength 5 makes them equal to axes on the battlefield and better than spearman and archers. As it stands now, the only thing you need is a large stack of catapults defended by a few horse archers/elephants. Anyone who plays multiplayer knows that this is exactly what happens.

I don't want to reduce their strength (which damages all their uses) but they could have -30% when defending. I don't see the point in gameplay terms, except for the mentioned horse archer/catapult stacks. If you reduce their strength is reduced to 4 then they become even more useless with the advent of gunpowder and cannons are still reasonably far.

Mounted units should get a new promotion:
Flanking III
50% chance to attack Siege units first.

I allways wondered why seige units (from a gameplay perspective rather than a realistic perspective - the seige units being the anti stack unit) don't have increased collateral damage for bigger stacks. So, if the enemy stack is 5 units, then the cat (and other seige) do normal collateral damage. But if the enemy stack is bigger, then the collateral damage that is inflicted is increased more so that the more units in the other stack, the more collateral damage each seige unit does. Currently there is no way of stopping a huuuuggggeeee stack except with another huuuuuggggeeee stack which kinda screws up this rock-paper-scissors system imo. The bigger the opposing stack, the more lethal your seige units become. Sounds cool to me and would solve this problem.

We multiplayer players know all about this problem.
Stacks tend to consist of at least 50% catapults. There is nothing that can stop such stack.

i agree that catapults are so annoying. i besieged a city with my modern units, the city is guarded by modern units as well but somehow it still has catapults. the catapults attacked my marines, defending marines are unaffected (they kill the catapults and have their hitpoint remains the same) but other units on that stack were significantly injured. that has to be fixed

I know, my comments are worthless

Probably the only accurate part of your entire post.

 

[feldmarshall]

i agree that catapults are so annoying. i besieged a city with my modern units, the city is guarded by modern units as well but somehow it still has catapults. the catapults attacked my marines, defending marines are unaffected (they kill the catapults and have their hitpoint remains the same) but other units on that stack were significantly injured. that has to be fixed

 

[LucyDuke]

I was too quick to the gun, I apologize. LordOlleus and notagoodgame were, indeed, complaining.

The fact of the matter is that they're too strong--annoyingly so. In multiplayer, it's being abused.

But so were you.

On topic, though, the vast majority of people here do enjoy the historical relevance of the game. It's not a perfect simulation, of course, because there's no such thing. Even if it were a perfect simulation, people would be bickering over the nuances. That's not a bad thing.

Thanks. If you could keep your references to history to yourself, that'd be great.

Crap like this, among the rest of your comments, shows that you have no interest in making any useful contribution to this community. What are you doing here?

(BTW, this might interest you, if you do have anything other than vitriol to offer. In accordance, though, I'm done with you.)

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: OK - stop it all of you.

GenocideAlive: Read the forum rules.
Others: Please report posts, rather than making comments that will only serve to antagonise.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[azzaman333]

In MP, large stacks are made, 75% of the units being maden are catapults. Considering forms of artillery have never been used in anywhere near that proportion in the real world, there is clearly something overpowering about them.

 

[Watiggi]

Not to mention that the whole "stacks" concept makes the game semi-obnoxious.

I agree with this (although not my choice of words - I would have gone with monotonous instead). Although ruthless, since Civ4 I have gained a healthy respect for Civ2's way of dealing with stacks - if one unit in the stack dies, then the whole stack dies. Right now I just wander up to a city with a stack of 12-16 cats and the result is pretty much predictable. It's the one real all round solution to all attacking issues in the game - more seige units. At least that is what I encounter anyway. Apart from having a strong anti seige stack counter, I don't really see a solution.

 

[Mercenary82]

Instead of a catapult nerf, maybe its other units that need beefing up like horse archers? Also other units could be given an attack bonus to cats. I'm just worried that making cats any weaker will make it even easier to turtle with protective archers.

 

[kniteowl]

I love that idea. The objection I was going to make was that that would be complete overkill for the attacker, a horse archer (or whatever) could ignore the fact that there are 10 spearmen defending the target archer (or whatever), which wouldn't feel right. OTOH, if it's only available to level 5 and above, there are going to be so few of them that it's hardly overwhelming. As long as there is a provision that you can't touch non-combat units until the entire stack has been taken down (no picking on the escorted GA), it seems completely reasonable.

Level 5? It's quite easy to get level 5 with a Charismatic Civ, you only require 13XP

So that's Barracks + Stables + Civics + 2GG = 3 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 13XP if you get your GGs early enough for level 5 Knights, and the Great Wall will help gettting you those GGs earlier, that or play as Cyrus, 3 GGs if you use the 1st one to gain a Level 6 unit.

OR replace the 2 GGs with Westpoint and get level 5 Cavalry that way. I say level 5 is too low, maybe a level 6 Promotion, I hear those level 6 Commando Cavalry are Dangerous in MP, capable of Speeding across your roads to your back line cities that are only guarded by 1 archer so they can easily capture your core cities.

Well It's quite debatable whether this new promotion would be better suited for a level 5 or 6 promotion, it'd have to be tested out for balance issues especially For Charismatic Civs

Personally I like manipulating the Charismatic Trait to it's max, getting the Great Wall up and acquiring as many early GGs as possible, pick a Production city and start pumping out level 5 Knights with Blitz Promotion. Their Like Middle age Tanks without City Raider or Barrage.

 

[LucyDuke]

Level 5? It's quite easy to get level 5 with a Charismatic Civ, you only require 13XP

So that's Barracks + Stables + Civics + 2GG = 3 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 13XP if you get your GGs early enough for level 5 Knights, and the Great Wall will help gettting you those GGs earlier, that or play as Cyrus, 3 GGs if you use the 1st one to gain a Level 6 unit.

OR replace the 2 GGs with Westpoint and get level 5 Cavalry that way. I say level 5 is too low, maybe a level 6 Promotion, I hear those level 6 Commando Cavalry are Dangerous in MP, capable of Speeding across your roads to your back line cities that are only guarded by 1 archer so they can easily capture your core cities.

Well It's quite debatable whether this new promotion would be better suited for a level 5 or 6 promotion, it'd have to be tested out for balance issues especially For Charismatic Civs

Personally I like manipulating the Charismatic Trait to it's max, getting the Great Wall up and acquiring as many early GGs as possible, pick a Production city and start pumping out level 5 Knights with Blitz Promotion. Their Like Middle age Tanks without City Raider or Barrage.

Ooh, I've even been playing Cyrus, too, I should've thought of that. Well, jack it up to level 7 or something, the point is that it should not be easy enough to get that it's all over the place. That promotion would be a nightmare to fight off.

 

[kniteowl]

Ooh, I've even been playing Cyrus, too, I should've thought of that. Well, jack it up to level 7 or something, the point is that it should not be easy enough to get that it's all over the place. That promotion would be a nightmare to fight off.

Well if we're gonna go as far as a level 7 promotion which doesn't currently exist unless you count GG promotions... Basically the requirement for this promotion would be combat 5 which in itself is already a powerful promotion, I say just make it into a GG only Promotion to limit it and make it avaliable at around combat 3-5...whatever balances it out, I Don't want it to so rare that you only see it once in a blue moon, like a combat 6 unit or I don't want it to be too common either, somewhere in the middle like blitz or commando Promotions but you require a GG to use it so that in itself is already limited.

That kind of promotion would be perfect for a offensive GG where your not afraid of losing your GG at high odds becuase you can hand pick your battles.

This is a bit off topic, but I'd also like another promotion added into the game, which replaces G-III, and call it "Adaptation" Which requires either W-II or G-II, it's ability is, you don't get a penalty attacking defensive terrain (eg-forest, jungle, hills) and gain a 30% withdrawal rate.

 

[Watiggi]

Could limit it at a specific xp amount rather than a level. That way it would become available with the same xp regardless of being Charismatic or not. As a GG promo idea is cool too. Another would be to dull its effectiveness down a bit and then make it more acessable as a basic strategic element in the game that would just add to the current strategy of unit types. The problem is, this wont fix the 20-cats-in-a-stack, stack of doom issue.

 

[notagoodname]

i agree that catapults are so annoying. i besieged a city with my modern units, the city is guarded by modern units as well but somehow it still has catapults. the catapults attacked my marines, defending marines are unaffected (they kill the catapults and have their hitpoint remains the same) but other units on that stack were significantly injured. that has to be fixed

Got to agree with that totally.
Collateral damage occurs regardless of the units defense value or strength. That is simply ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[kniteowl]

Got to agree with that totally.
Collateral damage occurs regardless of the units defense value or strength. That is simply ridiculous in my opinion.

Here's an idea to possibly balance it

I dunno how Collateral damage is calculated but how about if you use an Obsolete unit that causes collateral damage to your enemy who is defending with a future age unit it only causes half of the original collateral damage that would of happen if both units were in the same age

LOL I know it sounds confusing but here would be an example.

Assuming Collateral Damage is 10HP

A Treb causing Collateral Damage to a Rifleman would be 5 becuase it's obsolete by 1 age

A Treb causing collateral damage to a Infantry Unit would be 2.5 because it's obsolete by 2 ages and etc...

 

[Watiggi]

Got to agree with that totally.
Collateral damage occurs regardless of the units defense value or strength. That is simply ridiculous in my opinion.

No true. Collateral damage is based on the two units strengths. It's essentially a normal combat round in terms of figuring out how much damage is delt (the strengths of both units are compared and the amount of damage is then computed). So a Modern Armour will receive bugger all collateral damage from a Catapult whereas an Artillery will cause alot of damage to a city full of archers. The seige units have limitations on how many times they can inflict collateral damage before the combat round starts and is also limited by how much maximum damage they can cause to the units. A bigger gap between strengths of the units (in favour of the attacking seige units), will result in the attacking seige taking bigger chunks out of the defensive units with each collateral damage hit. Essentially they have greater firepower.

[edit]Just re-read your post. My appologies. I interpreted it as strengths not affecting collateral damage rather than strengths not being able to prevent collateral damage at all. My post can be still relevent from a certain point of view, so I'll leave it unedited.

 

[notagoodname]

Here's an idea to possibly balance it...

Well that would still cause collateral damage to really strong units whilst the primary defender against the cat would take no damage at all.

Personally i'd prefer collateral to be a proper combat round rather than an always hit kind of thing. So if the unit has 40 strength then the catapult will have almost no chance to damage it.


Here's an idea: make the catapult fight multiple units in 1 attack-
Have the catapult fight 1 round with each individual enemy unit in a stack until it either dies or battles 6 units (and widthdraws).

eg. 1 Catapult attacks a stack of 6 axes

Catapult fights 1 round with axeman#1, axe hits cat, cat hits axe, 0.5 dmg done to axe, 0.5 dmg done to cat.
Catapult fights 1 round with axeman #2, axe hits cat, cat misses axe, 0.5dmg to cat.
Catapult fights 1 round with axeman #3...
...
and so on until the cat dies or has fought 1 round with 6 other units (in which case it widthdraws).


This would make the cat still very good at weakening every unit in a stack and also a good chance at widthdrawing succesfully against mid-range units. Also it would mean strong units such as modern armour would rightly rip through cats.


And wattagi that's cool, you see what i mean.

 

[JimT]

How about. When the catapult wins a round it fights a round with 2-4 (I don't know how well it works so pick a number) random defenders. These are treated as normal.

So a typical battle might be:
Catapult attacks city guarded by longbowmen
Dies but wounds defender twice
Causes damage to three defenders twice

But:
Catapult attacks modern armour
Catapult dies
End of Story

Only problem is a superpromoted longbowman in hilltop cities will be almost impenetrable, as catapults become almost useless against them (and the stack underneath). This might make sense (if the catapult are shot full of arrows before they get their range then they are no use to anyone), but would affect gameplay in the classical era. Cannons and Trebuchets shouldn't suffer as they should at least damage a defender once.

Notagoodname's idea seems reasonable though

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I suggestion applying symbolism with CIV 4.

Catapults weren't just one wooden machine. I believe it's an army that's geared towards siege warfare, with ladders, flame arrows, camping equipment (for sieges)... and catapults are only a symbol. Just like maceman are symbolic for medieval infantry, horse archers are symbolic or ancient cavalry, knights are symbolic for medieval cavalry (knights can equally symbolise mongols. They had heavy cavalry second to none). In that sense, I could agree that catapults damaging masses of tightly-packed armies makes a lot of sense.

Besides, it's common strategy to throw diseases objects like carcases or manure (brown, smelly things) into camps or cities, and wrecking more casualties in diseases than by metal. Don't forget that during medieval Europe, for every person that died in war, 12 died of diseases.