1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] Owls of Minerva discussion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Red Adept, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Red Adept

    Red Adept Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX, USA
    Just finished a game with the Owls of Minerva. Amanitore - Prince - continents - small map.

    I've played as Voidsingers and Sanguine Pact before and wanted to try the other two. I decided to focus on the Owls on a lark. As Nubia, I started off near a desert and was able to get four cities with a Nubian Pyramid by the city center and circle it with cheap districts.

    Obviously I slotted both Diplo policies and made quick use of the additional envoy and had my first suzerainty by turn 20. I didn't realise that you receive an envoy EVERY time you send a trade route to a CS. On my continent there were only two CS, so by the end of the game, I had over 30 envoys at each.

    I shared my continent with Gilgabro and a grumpy Tamar. They were consistently at war with each other, which made me happy as it kept them out of my hair while I focused on my cities. By the time I got to the medieval era, I was putting harbors on lakes just to get the extra trader.

    The other continent had Kristina, Mansa Musa and Tomyris. This was good as Kristina meant that we were getting all the Nobel Prize contests. I went for all the spies so I was gaining 1000 or so every 6 turns from Mansa Musa. Sadly Tomyris was penned in and beaten down by Kristina and didn't do much the entire game.

    I ended up settling 8 cities and (flipping one of Tamar's) ending up with 14 trade routes. I started to focus on a culture victory and ended up with a Diplo Victory around turn 350. Kristina joined the Voidsingers and I would have slogged through at least another 100 turns to finally top her on culture. I was close, but she closed her borders to my Rock Bands after I leveled three up to 4 with concert tours through her wonders. And I had just got two near her capital to reduce loyalty by 40 each, and had a spy ready to drop her loyalty as well.

    Pros:
    • Insane amounts of gold at the end. In the Atomic era I was pulling 2,000 GPT with 30k in the bank.
    • Absurd numbers of Envoys. I slotted the 1 GPT/Envoy policy in the medieval era and left it there for the rest of the game. I must have ended up with over 100 envoys. I was Suzerain of all the city states for all of the Modern era and beyond.
    • Mastery of Spycraft. Had my spies stealing gold, stealing techs and causing riots in Mansa Musa and Kristina's cities. Kristina had stolen one from Tomyris and I never let her have a moments peace there. She had placed a Neighborhood in it and I was recruiting partisans every 6 turns just to distract her. Mansa was bleeding gold to me in a ridiculous fashion. I had a spy in every one of my cities to protect my commercial hubs and still had 4 to throw at Mansa and Kristina. I'm not sure how the "Your CIties gain +4 Loyalty, +1 Amenity when a spy is in their territory" works. I presume it means that each city needs a spy to gain the benefit, or is it just 'one spy grants it to everyone as long as one's at home.'? I didn't really need the loyalty bonus as I played nice with the Hermits on my continent.
    Cons:
    • Aside from offensive spy missions, my interactions with the AIs were to stay friends and allies with everyone but Tamar. I converted everyone on my continent to my religion and dealt with barbarians. It was a low-key builder game. I just wanted to see how this SS played out.
    • It was slow. Until I was able to get to Medieval era, it was basically just slotting in the Diplomatic League. Once I got the additional traders and the gold boost, things started to take off.
    All in all, it was interesting, not as in-your-face as the Voidsingers or the Sanguine Pact, but once you get the groundwork down and plan your cities appropriately, you'll be raking in the gold and spies. I wasn't sure how I was going to play the game, so built holy sites and then realised it wasn't worth it. I knew a military game wasn't going to pan out easily (all those early walls with Tamar and not poking the War Cart bear.)

    Next time I try them, I'm going to use a Civ better suited to their benefits (extra spies... extra policy slots... etc) and have a sharper focus from the beginning.
     
    Morningcalm, Pietato and Deadly Dog like this.
  2. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

    Joined:
    May 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Germany
    I haven't tried (or more specificly payed attention to) how it works, but I strongly assume each city needs its own counterspy to reap the bonus.
     
  3. Finvola

    Finvola Where's my pie?

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Messages:
    597
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canary Islands
    I tried Owls as Catherine. Just the regular Catherine as I didn't realize that buying the packs individually meant that Teddy and Catherine didn't come with it. Anyway, she had insane amounts of gold and spies. I played on a standard continents map at regular speed.. Monty was being his usual aggressive neighbor self and John Curtain and Cyrus were above him, just looking for excuses to have wars. On another continent there was Hungary, China and Scythia.

    Monty had a dark age and one of his cities on my border started losing loyalty so I sent a couple of spies there to take out the governor and cause unrest. I did mostly use the spies to counterspy in my own territory and I think every spy the AI sent my way was caught or killed. Nobody got art or stole tech. I didn't bother with the neighborhoods. I seldom make those!

    I was going for a culture win and China was the last one I had to overtake. And of course he ended up using the policy card to stop rock bands, but I eventually got a culture win. I think Owls would be great for trade focused civs like Mali, Netherlands, or maybe Cree.
     
    Pietato and Deadly Dog like this.
  4. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
    Messages:
    468
    The same goes for naval civs, esp. Phoenicia, England, maybe Maori and Indonesia, as you can double the trade routes. Also, if the Town Charters (100% commercial hub adjacency) policy card plugged in, a carefully placed CH with a Gilded Vault can generate an insane amount of culture.

    In my last game as Phoenicia (Emperor difficulty) I have Peter and Tamar as my neighbor, both chose to put a Larva/Theater Square in every single city. I only build one +2 TS before Industrial Era, but I have near 10 Gilded Vaults, which kept my culture output on par with Russia. After Town Charters was replaced by Economic Union (+100% CH and Harbor adjacency) I was simply skyrocketing in culture, and became the first to unlock Future Era civics, with just 2 Theater Squares.
     
    Deadly Dog likes this.
  5. Linklite

    Linklite Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Messages:
    287
    Gender:
    Male
    How do you mean, you can double your trade routes?
     
  6. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    One of the abilities of the Owls is that you get +1 trade route for having a Harbor.
    Unlike the normal market/lighthouse trade route, this is separate and allows a second route from the city.
    If most of your cities are on the coast (like his mentioned list of civs) then basically you get 2 trade routes per city instead of 1. It’s extremely strong, albeit very click intensive late game.
     
  7. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,009
    I think that is the case. Quite useful late game when you want to found a city to snatch that oil/uranium/aluminium next to other civ borders. Victor + bought monument + the spy + a couple of food trade routes were quite useful in bringing to green loyalty a city in an island next to an enemy capitol that was in a golden age. Not game breaking, of course, but a nice trick to get these extra loyalty you need until a new city grows.
     
    Pfeffersack likes this.
  8. Linklite

    Linklite Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Messages:
    287
    Gender:
    Male
    Ah ok, thanks. I haven't got NFP yet, so I wasn't sure, I thought since he mentioned naval Civs there was something specific to them, as opposed to something general. Makes dense, though.

    In some ways, it's a shame they got rid of the Carthage CS. With their vanilla suzerain bonus, that would have been insane!
     
  9. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    337
    Gender:
    Male
    They never get rid of CSs, only change their names if the CSs become included in a new civ. Carthage is changed to Ngazargamu.
     
    Sostratus likes this.
  10. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    But 3 trade routes per city (Old Carthage) would be so out of control. The power balanced by the inability of a human to click that much.
     
  11. Linklite

    Linklite Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2019
    Messages:
    287
    Gender:
    Male
    They effectively did.
    Carthage's suzerain bonus was to give an extra trade route per encampment. In R&F they changed it to be cheaper to buy units. In GS they changed the name, since they wanted the name for Phoenicia.
    To illustrate what I'm saying, I'll leave you with this gem:
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  12. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    337
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh yeah I totally forgot about the base game Carthage, that was so broken.
     
  13. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    6,058
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I'm playing now with Hungary and I have like 100 enjoys already from all the trade routes and levying. And I'm only mid way through the game. It's crazy. I really like the bonus policy slots as well and the guilded vault is really nice for Hungary as I have commercial districts in every city. There are plenty of synergies here.
     
  14. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,389
    The Gilded Vault is not being buffed by the envoy bonus? A bug? All other usual buildings are getting what's due.
    Spoiler :
     
  15. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,389
    I checked my other save with Hermetic Order, and the Alchemical Society is receiving due bonus from envoys (I also have Einstein, hence 14 science):
    Spoiler :


    So Gilded Vault receiving nothing from 3 envoys must be a bug.
     
    reddishrecue likes this.
  16. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,709
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Using them now, as Dido, Huge map. I have Kumasi, and it is extremely painful...
     
  17. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    The culture must flow.

    I’m trying a Japan game set up for Harbor/CH fun but still no city states.
    Honestly After playing with gilded vault, the CH needs some work. It’s a bit outdated adjacency wise. For starters the non stacking river aspect from vanilla when GS added named river distinctions. And the oasis could be a nice +2.
     
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,323
    The CH adjacencies seem fine to me. I see CH as a deliberately "weaker" District, that you either build in Coastal Cities to complement you Harbour or in weaker non-coastal Cities when there's nothing else to build.

    But yeah, +2 adjacency for Oases. I play with a mod that does that. Nice for RP / feel, but it's rare the actual adjacency comes up.

    I think the bigger problem with CHs are the buildings. Seriously, seriously weak sauce. My hope is that FXS have deliberately left them weak, because they plan to do more with them in the future (which Gilded Vault suggests they might).
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
    tedhebert and SammyKhalifa like this.
  19. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,185
    Location:
    Igloovik
    100 envoys, for a SMALL map?? So does the Owls bonus give you +1 envoy every time your trade route is up for renewal? When I read up about Owls, assumed your envoy count decremented back by one when the trade route ran its course, or got plundered, etc.. But this is sounding like your envoy count increments every time you direct/redirect a trade route there, but it never decrements. Whoa.
     
  20. Equilin

    Equilin Prince

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    446
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, the 1 envoy is given permanently the moment the trade route is established. Even if you immediately end up at war with the CS right after (via suzerain major civ).
     

Share This Page