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Owning capital is a skill

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    This was a question I never got a Marxist to resolve properly. Where lies the purported distinction between 'personal' and 'private' property? And this is why the abolition of private property is just plain unworkable, at least in the present state of society. Perhaps under some sort of fully-automated gay space communist system, it would work.

    1. Elon Musk is a bourgie.
    2. The soil of Mars is red and very seizable.
    3. "Mars" is just one letter away from "Marx".
     
  2. Old Hippy

    Old Hippy Deity

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    now we just need to decide if your children are assets or liabilities in this brave new world
     
  3. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    The plebs gotta have shekels to drive consumption otherwise it's all for naught.
     
  4. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    How to balance a checkbook and budget. It's all well and good to learn about the interoperation between democracy and the economy, but those topics are not finance skills.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
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  5. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    I am pretty sure that was settled with legalized abortion.
     
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  6. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Yeah, I assumed this was where you were going. You do have to be careful, in general. First off, getting 'average' S&P was and is very unlikely for most people. Beating inflation with your investments is relatively guaranteed over the long-run. But getting average returns isn't, because the distributions of winnings aren't equitable. There's a large zero-sum component to market trading, and the average doesn't reflect the distribution.

    But secondly, and this is the wrong thread, there's an implicit assumption that returns would have averaged 8% with a society that has a 15% savings rate. But I don't think we should complicate things further. In general, I agree with your base, lots of people need to spend a lot more of their money on either savings instruments or actual investments.
     
  7. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    That's a gross oversimplification. Parents income level is an amalgamation of all those other factors, intelligence which is passed on genetically, work ethic which is passed on socially, and education which is passed on through financial means. Of course the rich are going to pay for their kids to have the best educations, of course the self made millionaire is going to teach his offspring to work hard to succeed, of course the intelligent inventor/entrepreneur is going to pass on some of that ingenuity through genetics.

    The real problem is cost and quality of education and barriers to entry (which is usually cost). Fix the education system and you will have far less income disparity.
     
  8. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Yes. But your confounded variables were implicit to his thesis (though you'd need to know that ahead of time). A slacker scion of wealth is more likely to have a high income than a poor smart kid who busts his ass. There are confounds, for sure. But it's still a problem.

    Oh, and the fact that wealthy people look after their kids isn't immoral in any sense. But it also shouldn't hide that the meritocracy will naturally vanish in certain societies as time progresses.

    If I got an additional pawn every time we played chess, we'd not be surprised that the 20th game would be imbalanced and unfair
     
  9. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    In one lifetime most posters on CFC live better than John D. Rockefeller did. That's capital.
     
  10. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Yes but I feel that the slacker scion of wealth is an outlier. I think most rich people have very high expectations for their kids. Are we talking about the ultra rich or just like top 10%? Cus it's a huge difference. Two doctors who make combined like 500k a year aren't leaving their kids enough money to be losers their entire lives. And even a lot of ultra rich people now aren't giving their kids handouts like warren buffet has said he's giving away most of his money, same with zuckerberg and bill gates.

    Plus there's the whole notion of fairness. What's fair? To most people fair is whatever is better/best for me. Who decides? Chess is a zero sum game, a loser and a winner. Wealth is not zero sum. Captialisim is not supposed to be zero sum either. It doesn't matter if we have people making billions if poverty is eliminated. It only matters if they make their billions at the expense of poor people. Sometimes they do.

    So true he didn't even have AC or video games or mountain dew!
     
  11. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老仁森林

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    That's a solid argument against your thesis
     
  12. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老仁森林

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    No seriously though, the idea is stupid

    having something is clearly not a "skill", but you could argue that using it is

    also it seems like capital is made into a redundant thing
     
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    What's a checkbook?
     
  14. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    8% is a very conservative return. Most stock mutual funds will do so over a long period. Simply buying an S&P 500 fund will do it. Since you mention inflation, this is a gross return. Read it 6% net return. That said, 8% net is not unusual over an extended period.

    I don't get why you think this is the wrong place. This is a sim-game thread. In this facet, the games mirror real life. Compound interest does its job.

    J
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The distinction between "personal property" and "private property" isn't supposed to describe the here-and-now, because in the present system, all forms of ownership tend towards private property. It's supposed to describe the idea that some forms of exclusive possession will persist in a world after private property, just as they preceded it. The significance of the distinction isn't one between "good" property and "bad" property, it's between a claim to exclusive use or access which is established through negotiation and consensus, and one which is established as an absolute and backed up with force.

    This is a distinction often garbled by Marxists, who are, as usual, the worst ambassadors for Marxism you could hope to find, but it remains useful so long as it is properly contextualised.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  16. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    To be fair to his argument today it is not at all difficult to get market - 0.1% returns from an index fund. But your other point is true, part of accumulating wealth is making not just good decisions with money, but making better decisions than most other people do with money.
     
  17. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    It's actually rather simple.

    Personal property is your stuff. Your toothbrush, your chair, your television, your car, your home. Things that you use, personally. For yourself.

    "Private" property are the classical "means of production". Essentially "the commons" that have been privatized. You own ten apartment buildings? That's not personal property. That's privatized community property. You don't need ten apartment buildings, the only thing you're doing with them is profiting because you own them. The rich get richer, by hoarding what should be the community's for themselves.
     
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  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    What if I use my car to drive to work? How isn't it then part of the means of production? How about using my laptop to run a business?

    We've already got this to some degree, though I would like for things to go a lot further. Regulations on what businesses can do are ways of moderating private property rights to make them serve society more than they would otherwise. Another obvious one is the historical transition from various forms of bonded labor to wage labor, and then to wage labor improved by labor law and the institutionalization of unions and collective bargaining.
     
  19. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The economy, and especially the investment economy is changing all the time. Every decade has different challenges and opportunities. Zero interest rates over the past 6 years has been a hallmark of recent times. Earlier times had other issues. I'm a baby boomer. please tell me all about the cash infusion from SS that I got? Since 1973 interest rates have been up down and sideways depending upon when you look. Looking back I see the 1980s as a turning point in wealth growth among the middle class. A few things of note happened. Manufacturing began its long move from local to overseas; business excess and the mergers and acquisition feeding frenzy that democratized wealth for the ruthless, and last, the merchandising of "you can use credit to look wealthy too". These laid the foundation for all that followed. Some Baby boomers made out like bandits, some took advantage of the changing times and kept up or improved their lot. And then there are those who missed the boat and are now the old white people who have little and cannot change. Blacks and minorities for the most part never had a chance.

    While using averages is OK, most people in the bottom half of the wage scale cannot afford to save or even get on the path to take advantage of an 8% S&P return. Even if they know what that means. At least two things need to be in place for a family to improve their asset base over time: knowledge that it can be done and some excess capital/money to put aside. I would say that 80% of Americans never think about assets, only income. they think income is wealth and when they get a bit more, they spend it to show that they are wealthy. Having a little excess cash is also tough. They don't ever get that critical mass of cash to convince them long term investing is worth while.


    Mine were liabilities until a few years ago. Then they became assets. My wife, their mother, though, would say they have always been an asset. ;)
     
  20. Old Hippy

    Old Hippy Deity

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    Old Hippy said:
    now we just need to decide if your children are assets or liabilities in this brave new world
    its the teenage years that get to me then a year of that's not so bad followed by University
    still I can work till I'm 80 :)
     

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