oxford University

[t3h_m013]

I was just wondering if there was any reason for choosing oxford as the wonder? Only thing i can think of is that it might of been the first university built.. or something. Other than that i wouldve expected either one of the american colleges (harvard... or... i dont know anything about american universities) or cambridge, as i think its generally considered better? It is definately better for science...

Sorry if its been discussed before, did a brief search and found nothing.

 

[Ray Patterson]

Ah the whole Oxbridge debate... Oxford has slightly more tradition I think. But they could also have gone for the Sorbonne, or Heidelberg, Padova...

Or just given each nation their own, it's a national wonder after all. I think that would be some nice modding work, coming up with a suitable name for the national version of each national wonder. On an even different note, what happens if you capture a national wonder which you already have?

 

[saml00]

along the same lines though . . .pentagon . . . three gorges dam. . . oracle. . . parthenon. . . kremlin. . . etc etc etc they are all civ specific and could all be modded.

 

[saml00]

also, I know that the ones that I just named are world wonders that doesn't mean that when the US builds "the dam" it could be hoover and when china builds it it could be three gorges. . .

 

[t3h_m013]

some early civs might be tricky, mongolia for instance. if a list of names was created making the individual graphics wouldnt be impossible by any means... (i think theres some barriers at the moment with xml and some other stuff i dont understand but im sure itll all be sorted at some point...)

so i take it there was no decent conclusion to the debate?

edit: @sam100 i agree with your point on three gorges, pentagon and the kremlin but the oracle and parthenon dont really have anything could be replaced with, they're kinda one offs... as far as i know.

 

[Ray Patterson]

well yes but that should be very difficult to fill in, after all world wonders are something very special. I think it would be better to adapt that only to national wonders. Or indeed make them all neutral, like the epics.

edit: in the oxbridge debate? 'course not, that's the academic version of stones vs. beatles.

 

[lysander]

Cambridge isn't generally considered better than Oxford, Oxford is stronger in many areas, classics comes to mind. Harvard doesn't hold a candle to either one.

As far as national wonders go, some of the design choices do confuse me. You build a "heroic epic," not "the Iliad," or "Beowulf" etc, but then you build "West Point" and not "Military Acadamy." I wouldn't be upset if they switched all the national wonders to generic names. While most of the world wonders, like the Parthanon or the Great Library, are unique and clearly deserve to be represented, something like a great university could be called, well, a Great University without losing much.

 

[BeefontheBone]

It's only the post-Industrial national wonders which have specific names - as you say, the Epics are generic. EDIT: Except the Forbidden Palace. Oops.

@Ray: The second instance of the national wonder is razed on city capture. In fact, I suspect that they are razed regardless of whether you've already built one, or at least have a chance of survival akin to standard buildings.

 

[MRM]

I think national wonders should have different names depending on the civ it's build in. Having 18 oxford universities ( and none build in oxford ) is silly. ( same for Westpoint , Rushmore etc ) That could not be such difficult for Fireaxis to change this because national wonders don't have a film in Civ4 ... at least I have replaced those national wonders with generic names in my XML files, but having a specivic national wonder for each civ would be much better

 

[lysander]

I think national wonders should have different names depending on the civ it's build in. Having 18 oxford universities ( and none build in oxford ) is silly. ( same for Westpoint , Rushmore etc ) That could not be such difficult for Fireaxis to change this because national wonders don't have a film in Civ4 ... at least I have replaced those national wonders with generic names in my XML files, but having a specivic national wonder for each civ would be much better

The problem is that these national wonders are not universal in the real world. There never was a prestigious university in Mongolia, or the Aztec Empire. Nor was there a central foreign intelligence service in Rome (the arcani don't count; I'm not saying they didn't use spies, just that there was no centralized intelligence collecting service). There is no evidence that the Incas had a concept of drama, and they certainly had nothing like what the "globe theatre" wonder is supposed to represent. America has never had anything that you could sub in for the Forbiden Palace: sure there are 50 state capitals, but none of these are really what the wonder is trying to represent. Finding the equivolent national wonder for each civ would be a huge strech in most cases and would come off sounding silly.

 

[oriel94]

Oh, this Oxford v Cambridge v Harvard thing has been discussed many times. I suppose Oxford was chosen because it is the oldest and best-known university throughout the entire English-speaking world (Oxford English Dictionary, etc).

Oxford was chosen in preference to Cambridge probably because Oxford is older and bigger, and because Cambridge is the world's best copy of Oxford. I mean no disrespect to Cambridge thereby, on the contrary.

It was chosen in preference to Harvard probably because Harvard is just a baby (in age) compared to Oxford, which was established about 1150 AD.

Also, far greater number of Americans go to Oxford than there are Brits/Aussies/Canadians/New Zealanders/South Africans etc going to Harvard. Some people unkindly refer to Oxford as 'UCO' - University of California at Oxford.

Actually, I don't know why Oxford was chosen. The above points are simply possible explanations.

 

[MRM]

The problem is that these national wonders are not universal in the real world. There never was a prestigious university in Mongolia, or the Aztec Empire. Nor was there a central foreign intelligence service in Rome (the arcani don't count; I'm not saying they didn't use spies, just that there was no centralized intelligence collecting service). There is no evidence that the Incas had a concept of drama, and they certainly had nothing like what the "globe theatre" wonder is supposed to represent. America has never had anything that you could sub in for the Forbiden Palace: sure there are 50 state capitals, but none of these are really what the wonder is trying to represent. Finding the equivolent national wonder for each civ would be a huge strech in most cases and would come off sounding silly.

I agree that it would be difficult for some civs like the aztecs, because they didn't survived long enough to create such an university ( or other more modern national wonders ) - but for those cases I won't mind if they are a little bit creativ and invent a prestigious university for them. But for most civs ( at least for most surviving ) you will find something btw forbidden palace - i haven't replaced that so far since I don't know about an alternativ

Maybe camp david for america or schloß sans souci for germany ?

 

[Reignking]

Can we create a forum for complaints like these?

"Why no synagogues?"

"Why no steam engine trains?"

"Why isn't Civ 4 exactly like real life over the last 6000 years?"

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Sure, from a roleplaying point of view it would be nice to have civ-specific national wonders. However, not only is lysander absolutely correct n pointing out that there simply ISN'T an equivalent for all these "wonders" in each civ, but it would be quite annoying to play that way, since you had to keep so many different names in mind. I mean, when I now see "Globe theatre", I know what it stands for - but if there were 18 different theatre variants, I'd have to have a closer look each time, and I bet I would more often than not mix them up (until, some day in the far future, I would know all those names by heart).

Honestly: The national wonders should be generic as in "Heroic epic". No harm done that way. (And since I can't hold back: I guess if I ever do some modding, the first thing I change is exchange "West Point" for "General staff" with that nice painting of Hindenburg and Ludendorff brooding over their maps.)

 

[Nobody]

wasnt cambridge where sir issac newton went, so the university in civ2 & 3 was cambridge also just different name

 

[t3h_m013]

yea, isaac newton went to trinity cambridge... i think.

 

[col]

Yup Both Isaac Netwon and Col studied Physics at Cambridge. It was easier in his day - not so much to learn.

 

[MRM]

Sure, from a roleplaying point of view it would be nice to have civ-specific national wonders. However, not only is lysander absolutely correct n pointing out that there simply ISN'T an equivalent for all these "wonders" in each civ, but it would be quite annoying to play that way, since you had to keep so many different names in mind. I mean, when I now see "Globe theatre", I know what it stands for - but if there were 18 different theatre variants, I'd have to have a closer look each time, and I bet I would more often than not mix them up (until, some day in the far future, I would know all those names by heart).

Why should it confuse you ? If there is an option to build a [civspecific]-theater then you know it's the national theater wonder, even if you don't knew this name before. Of course it would be more difficult if they don't use always theaters ( and maybe operas or stadiums instead )