1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Cam_H, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"

    This isn't a traditional succession game, but more like a variant 'Ambrose golf meets Civ' in that the roster will play the same game and at intervals alternate between the least successful attempt and the most successful attempt.

    All players on the roster will be giving it their legitimate best shot. The Prince level players are invited to play all rounds, while the Monarch level players play the rounds where at the end the best game is to be selected (i.e. fixing the 'trash game'), but they may choose to play the other round at their discretion. The roster is comprised of both Noble-Prince level players and Monarch-Emperor players.

    End of round discussions will hopefully provide some 'educational' value.

    The idea of fixing a succession game where the situation was regularly 'less than great' was Paul666's idea, and was floated in the Strategies and Tips forum. This format stemmed from that initial proposal.

    The Settings

    Civ: Germany (Bismark)
    Landmass Type: Standard Continents
    Sea Level: Medium
    Climate: Temperate
    Size: Standard
    Barbarians: Normal
    Difficulty: Prince
    Speed: Normal
    Victory: All types enabled however human player confined to variant
    Version: 1.61 Vanilla

    The Start



    The Variant

    Players play in rounds to agreed check points. Games are compared and discussed. The opening game (below) is played for 40 turns. The agreed least successful (non-loss) game is then played by all for the next round. Games are compared, then the most successful game is played at least by the Noble-Prince players. The game chosen alternates between least and most successful per round.

    Germany can only win by Conquest, Domination, or Diplomatic-by-own-population.


    The Players

    Roster full.

    Cabert : Monarch
    Pigswill : Monarch
    Armstrong : Monarch
    Cam_H : Monarch
    Mice : Prince
    Petrucci : Prince
    Calavente : Prince
    VuDu : Noble

    M.I.A.
    William III : Prince
    Paul666 : Prince


    The Etiquette

    Slow! Games to be posted by Saturday morning 'American time'.

    Up to 1000AD*, rounds of 40 turns (* or thereabouts, to be agreed).
    From 1000AD, rounds of 20 turns.

    No reloads. No WorldBuilder.

    Rounds

    Round One: A great starting location with a great range of food, production, and commerce offerings. Settling on the spot looks like an option, but are there better alternatives? Looking for the least successful game to 850BC.

    Round Two: The tribe spoke and the tribe went with Vudu's game as at 875BC. Everyone played on to try to provide the most successful game to 125AD.

    Round Three: This time we took Cabert's game that had two strong cities and got a lot of mileage from Wonders and working the technology tree well. It was played to the end of the 1000AD turn.

    Round Four: All submissions were strong, and in a close call it was Calavente's game that was chosen for this round's play. Everyone was invited to submit at 1500AD turn where the 'most successful' game was be chosen.

    Round Five: In the end a game that showed both brains and muscle was selected at the most successful submission, and it was agreed that armstrong's would be taken for the next round. VuDu, Mice, Calavente, and Cabert each submitted winning Domination games from the 18th or 19th Century.

    Game Over!
     
  2. Kanga_DU

    Kanga_DU Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    283
    Well I plan to lurk this one, I'm sure I'll get some good insights from it.
     
  3. mice

    mice Moose

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    tundra
    Thanks for getting it running Cam_H.
    Wow thats a good start position !
     
  4. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    I looked at it and I thought "Why can't I normally get something remotely like that???"

    We're probably an oasis in a Copper-less, Iron-less, Ivory-less desert!
     
  5. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,701
    Location:
    berkshire, england
    It's an interesting start and not totally straightforward either. What year is 40 turns?
     
  6. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    According to my reckoning, 2400BC.
     
  7. Petrucci

    Petrucci Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    113
    Location:
    Illinois
    Wow great dice roll on that start Cam_H! Thanks for getting things rolling! Also Nice work explaining everything out also , could have been easy to get lost with this rule set we are running with! Hopefully we can get some strategic metals to go with the shiney ones!
     
  8. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    i'm not playing this round, but am very glad to see you opened it perfectly.
    See you next week for discussion or is it advice time?
     
  9. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    I think you should be back in time to disseminate your wisdom and point the naughty stick at the player with the least successful game. ;)

    I've been percolating on this start a bit and I agree with pigswill in that it's not that straight forward - in some sense a gluttony of riches that can steer the game in a few directions. With that said, I have a pretty good idea of the approach that I would take in at least achieving some mini-milestones.
     
  10. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,701
    Location:
    berkshire, england
    Well, whizzed through the first 40 turns. I'll post the save a bit later. Wouldn't like to spoil it for anyone else.

    A thought occurs to me: would it be helpful if the 'experts' played their own game as a series of demo games in addition to 'fixing the trash game'. Play according to intervals so as not to get too many spoilers and post towards the end. Its obviously extra work/play so would there be an interest in this?
     
  11. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    do you think you're likely to be the worst?
    i must say it's a rather uncommon start.
    With gold and silver, and being industrious, it looks like happiness won't be too much of a problem...
     
  12. mice

    mice Moose

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    tundra
    Pigswill, I'd be keen to see these saves near the end of the game. Sounds like one more way to learn.
    Heres my save.

    Spoiler :
    I decided to go for a second city ASAP to grab the metals,pigs and ivory.

    Missed Hinduism on the way to Priesthood.
    I'm hoping to build the oracle in Hamburg.

    Only just researched Agriculture so the rice and wheat isnt developed yet,but that's next.

    Any criticism welcome.
     
  13. Petrucci

    Petrucci Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    113
    Location:
    Illinois
    Whew, glad I didn't post mine yet! I was going to write a little mini report, spoilers included! I guess we will be discussing each save posted and the merits and demerits of each based on loading up each save posted? I should have mine up here tomorrow unfortunatly work has been evil!

    edit: I like the idea of comparing my save points to the experts! It is up to you, but something I would study after this thread has reached its resolution.
     
  14. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    Mice - thanks for being so speedy. I can't look at your game for a few days, although I have some views on what you've outlined in your written summary.

    To all: I would suggest to minimise spoilers while others are still playing please. If you must, perhaps use the 'spoiler' tags.

    I think that everyone is at sufficiently similar level to lose these "newbie" and "expert" tags - I'd prefer "Prince-level" and "Monarch-level" if everyone's OK with that. The last thing I want is some Immortal-level lurker suffer coronary failure from excessive laughter at my "expert" advice. :lol: Hopefully Pigswill, Cabert, and I may nonetheless make at least a few worthwhile calls!

    I am a little mindful that my game if I play this round might not look that much better than the Prince-players' games given 40 turns. I know I'm unlikely to do any backward-triple-somersaults with a start like that, envisaging a very workman-like approach.
     
  15. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    :D
    that's why i wanted one real expert around;)

    well, i'm sure we will, but i still fear we're gonna lose this game...


    No problem, it's the worst start that will be selected
    Just try to avoid being this one!
     
  16. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,701
    Location:
    berkshire, england
    Cabert: I'm confident that we won't lose, the game may lack elegance with various twists and turns but we'll win.
    Edit: personally speaking I'm more than happy to lose 'expert' tag; it never felt right to start with. But it would be good if an experienced player could join in.
     
  17. Petrucci

    Petrucci Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    113
    Location:
    Illinois
    I have every confidence we will win this game! :)

    Oh yes, btw here is my submission! :D

    Tiny report below in spoiler tag (yes some spoilers included, to compare after you have submitted your own save). Can't wait to see how I stack up against everyone!

    Spoiler :
    1) I settled in place, then went worker>warrior> 1 turn left for settler.
    2) Research path I took went agriculture>bronze working>animal husbandry now starting on mystisim.
    3) Immediate future I plan to move my settler and warrior to the nice commerce costal site for chariots for some earlier defense and possibly take out Kublai. Then another for the pigs gold town for some production. I'll try to oracle to metal casting in there somewhere. I'd like to go ahead and get that bronze but honestly hate settling such a crummy first/second city there, but at least there is game and cows on a grassland tile.
    4) For now I went ahead and farmed corn, and worked gold mine when I grew to size 2.
    5) Some good news I popped a scout and some gold, and have really scouted out a lot of the land!
     
  18. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    Where's that unbridled confidence? Actually losing is the least of my concerns ... as per one of my earlier comments over on 'the other thread in the other forum', I would have pushed for the game to be put up to Monarch level, but I sensed that others weren't too excited about that. Perhaps at the end, we'll be able to better assess whether the difficulty level was right.

    Given the 'friendly competitiveness' within the group, I think that we'll see fewer :smoke: moves than one might have in a normal single player game (at least I hope so!).

    What we might find however is competing strategies that end up twisting the game in two or more different directions, which is one reason why I wanted to avoid allowing a German Cultural or Spaceship victory. I can envisage that we will talk our way through to developing a few consistent thoughts on our loosely agreed direction as the game unfolds, regardless of which game is selected in a given round.

    It may sound like an excuse, but I think that we should also be mindful of the extraordinary good or bad luck that you can have with this game. The least successful game might just be one of the ones that was well played ... but 'yes' - I'll try to avoid submitting the worst game!

    We probably should have thought about another thing, which is how we are going to present the rationale for the games submitted: Is a turn log appropriate? Dot maps? Explanation of technology path? The war plan?

    ... Is this overcomplicating things, and maybe the games should be taken on their own merit?

    The dreaded voting for 'least successful' ... thoughts on approach?

    ~​

    Petrucci, thanks for your game. I look forward to having a look at it in the next few days.

    Thanks Mice for fixing the spoiler.

    I'm a bit concerned not to have heard from William III and VuDu - if you could check in, that would be great.

    Paul666 is having 'Free Speech' issues with 'the tribe with The Pyramids' I'm assuming.

    Do we have any :queen: in this group? I'd hate to refer to someone as a :king: by mistake!

    Edit:
    OK ... I'll open up the roster to invite a player who has a track record of Emperor or higher level wins on 'normal' maps and is willing to put up with the rest of us through the long haul!

    Edit2: OK ... forget about Edit above!
     
  19. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    cam_h, don't worry
    the game is started, we'll play it just as good as we can, and learn just as much as we can=too late to involve another "expert"
    + we built the rules according to our roster, so no problem

    About the writeup, i think we need to understand the why and how for each game=what was intented and how it went.
    A turn log is cool, but not necessary since 40 turns make a huge log! We'll have to open every game (that's why we need 2 days for the vote)!
     
  20. VuDu

    VuDu Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    USA
    :queen: <----- me

    Thanks for adding me in! It's the above quote that compelled me to contribute toward the yawning gap of expertise :D.


    Spoiler :
    - Settled in place, build was worker, worker, settler.
    - Goody huts gave me a scout, 68 gold, 68 gold.
    - Researched agriculture, wheel, bronze working (adopted slavery), pottery and since I haven't found bronze, I've already panicked:rolleyes: and am now researching archery.
    - Met Kublai (NE) and Napoleon (NW?)
    - Farmed the corn, mined the silver, couple farms for growth, mining the gold and building first cottage now.
    - Lion ate my first scout, bear ate my second (before I found bronze :().
     

Share This Page