[NFP] Pack1: Maya and Grand Colombia

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I could only think "runs away from battles you are winning and loose half your cities" with Santa Ana. Jose de San Martin could be a nice alternative.

As someone from Texas I can't help but to laugh at the Santa Ana ability.
Jose de Sam Martin makes the most sense if they are replacing them by relevance/geography. Timur replaced Genghis Khan in R&F.

 

[Kibikus]

So you can be sure that none of the civs and leaders (except for the alt leader in pack 5) will require or use any of the mechanics from Gathering Storm/Rise & Fall.

I understand why they've made that decision, but it would be a shame if none of the new leaders have a bonus towards diplomatic victory, especially since they're going to rework it.
There's only a handful of leaders with any bonuses towards it, and it's basically just extra ways to generate diplo favor. It would be interesting to see a leader with some kind of ability to manipulate the World Congress for example.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Even in Vanilla Game. if RF is installed. player still gets Timur instead of Genghis Khan. ??

What if Napoleon Bonaparte became a new French leader too? who should replace him?? Jourbert? Anthony Wayne?

Neither belongs to one or the other, I would say. I think the Maya should get bee-grenade warriors, even if Aztecs and Egyptians also used such weapons. Would make for some fun achievement names.

They'll be someone similar to Chinese Crouching Tigers i think... One-Range attacker with a strong attack and no melee penalty???

 

[Raiki]

But the coolest unique Maya unit would be a unit hurling wasp or bee bombs into the enemy (link to Google Books version of Six-Legged Soldiers: Using Insects as Weapons of War by Jeffrey A, Lockwood, published by Oxford University Press). Basically the Maya would seal gourds with wasps or bees, shake them up to anger the bees/wasps inside, then hurl them into the enemy. This weapon came about by 2600 BC.

Apparently, the Popul Vuh (the Maya religious text about the creation of the universe) tells of traps using bee-infested dummy soldiers too, per Mr. Lockwood's book:

This would be the coolest UU in the game, hands down. In the history of the franchise, even.

I'm already fantasizing about the first damage over time unique unit with an angry hornet sound effect.

 

[nitedemon]

Bee bomb? An archer replacement that deals area damage ? Yes please!

As far as Maya unique units go, I hope it's not a bowman of some sort. Most Mayan warfare was done at close-quarters with melee weapons often made of chert or obsidian, like the Macahuitl. I suspect part of the reason for this is that the Maya jungles didn't make it easy to get uninterrupted projectile fire.

But the coolest unique Maya unit would be a unit hurling wasp or bee bombs into the enemy (link to Google Books version of Six-Legged Soldiers: Using Insects as Weapons of War by Jeffrey A, Lockwood, published by Oxford University Press). Basically the Maya would seal gourds with wasps or bees, shake them up to anger the bees/wasps inside, then hurl them into the enemy. This weapon came about by 2600 BC.

Apparently, the Popul Vuh (the Maya religious text about the creation of the universe) tells of traps using bee-infested dummy soldiers too, per Mr. Lockwood's book:

 

[Morningcalm]

Bee bomb? An archer replacement that deals area damage ? Yes please!

Area of effect would be a nice representation! But given that wasps and bees are fickle, maybe it would generate a swarm of wasps (neutral Gaia unit) that would have a chance for the wasps to instead head in your direction. Or maybe it could disrupt enemy defense. It's hard to stay in a defensive position when there are angry stinging insects attacking you.

This would be the coolest UU in the game, hands down. In the history of the franchise, even.

I'm already fantasizing about the first damage over time unique unit with an angry hornet sound effect.

Yes, it would indeed be a cool UU!

As a Korean I'm a huge fan of the Turtle Ship though, even if no game has represented them as the speedy ramming vessels *with* cannons as well that they were.

They'll be someone similar to Chinese Crouching Tigers i think... One-Range attacker with a strong attack and no melee penalty???

To differentiate them from the Crouching Tigers, maybe they could be very swift units that could move after attacking.

 

[AntSou]

Gonna push back on this a bit. Cleopatra was a polyglot genius who used every single thing she could to advance her interests; if she had not been up against the unstoppable Roman Empire, history would remember her very very differently.

She's Greek (another one...) and she's occupying Hatshepsut's seat so I don't like her .

But they specifically said that the abilities will work without the expansions. Otherwise, they would have specified that the expansion would be required to use the leader (as they have specified for the relevant game modes and for the alt leader in pack #5).

So you can be sure that none of the civs and leaders (except for the alt leader in pack 5) will require or use any of the mechanics from Gathering Storm/Rise & Fall.

Anton even commented that designing the civs to work with only the base game mechanics was fun.

That seems very restrictive. Which part in the interview specifically are you referring to that makes you confident some leaders won't have both Vanilla and GS abilities?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

As a Pole I would like to see some Polish great general:
Stanisław Żółkiewski - conquered and captured Moscow as the one and only in history.
Jan III Sobieski - defeated Turkey in Vienna battle
Józef Piłsudski - stopped and overcame Red Army in 1920
or even well known in America Tadeusz Kościuszko

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

This would be the coolest UU in the game, hands down. In the history of the franchise, even.

I'm already fantasizing about the first damage over time unique unit with an angry hornet sound effect.

So honey will be a new strategic resource?
Anyway I would love to see them as a Mayan UU

 

[Morningcalm]

So honey will be a new strategic resource?
Anyway I would love to see them as a Mayan UU

I'm really curious what the new resources will be. Corn is more or less confirmed, but will we see gold, honey, or even bison? Who knows. :O

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm really curious what the new resources will be. Corn is more or less confirmed, but will we see gold, honey, or even bison? Who knows. :O

Honey is more confirmed than Maize. You can actually see the beehives in the 2K promotional hi-res screenshots.

 

[Morningcalm]

Honey is more confirmed than Maize. You can actually see the beehives in the 2K promotional hi-res screenshots.

Ooo good! Maybe we will find some "sweet" achievements therein too.

 

[AntSou]

There's a tile with beehives in one of the screenshots and Bison is pointless because it's already in the very professionally looking bundle of Resources provided by Sukritact.

 

[Zaarin]

Please no mountain adjacency bonus for the Maya. Yucatan is flat.

The Maya aren't originally from the Yucatan, which represents a late phase of Maya civilization. The Maya are originally from mountainous Central America.

This desire to shoehorn as many minorities and women into history and entertainment as possible is getting tiresome.

Which isn't what I said at all. I agree: it's patronizing to choose a woman simply because she's a woman. But that's not what's being discussed here (or, in my opinion, what has happened with any female leader in Civ6 except maybe Kristina). Lady Six Sky stands out among Mayan rulers of either sex. As impressive as K'inich Janaab' Pakal was, there's absolutely no reason he has to be the only ruler the Maya ever get.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Maya aren't originally from the Yucatan, which represents a late phase of Maya civilization. The Maya are originally from mountainous Central America.


Which isn't what I said at all. I agree: it's patronizing to choose a woman simply because she's a woman. But that's not what's being discussed here (or, in my opinion, what has happened with any female leader in Civ6 except maybe Kristina). Lady Six Sky stands out among Mayan rulers of either sex. As impressive as K'inich Janaab' Pakal was, there's absolutely no reason he has to be the only ruler the Maya ever get.

Kristina was quite the big personality, very eccentric. While her achievements are forgettable, the anecdotes from her reign are larger than life.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yes, it would indeed be a cool UU!

As a Korean I'm a huge fan of the Turtle Ship though, even if no game has represented them as the speedy ramming vessels *with* cannons as well that they were.

I know that this is the wrong thread for it but are you aware of the Mông Đồng of Vietnam? I think if Vietnam got in it could be a good UU for them and similar to the Turtle Ship from what I've known.
Edit: Fixed the link.

For the Maya, a ranged unit that uses bees would be interesting and definitely unique but we have yet to have a Mesoamerican spear thrower unit yet, so unless the devs did their extensive research, the latter is more likely.

 

[Morningcalm]

I agree: it's patronizing to choose a woman simply because she's a woman. But that's not what's being discussed here (or, in my opinion, what has happened with any female leader in Civ6 except maybe Kristina). Lady Six Sky stands out among Mayan rulers of either sex. As impressive as K'inich Janaab' Pakal was, there's absolutely no reason he has to be the only ruler the Maya ever get.

Seconded.

I would add that the issue of leader selection in my view is less about gender than it is about uniqueness--which leader has the coolest story? Which worthy leaders haven't shown up before? Lady Six Sky fits all of this. Along similar lines, I suggested Senusret III for Egypt (he's male, in case people were about to get anxious over that).

If we really must have another Mayan ruler who isn't female, so as not to upset (a certain demographic of gamers), then Yuk'noom the Great would be a good alternate to Pacal. Pacal, on the other hand, is a bit boring now, no? He's been in the game so often I am reminded of the repeat Montezuma (noting the caveat that Montezuma in Civ IV at least was Montezuma II rather than Montezuma I).

I know that this is the wrong thread for it but are you aware of the Mông Đồng of Vietnam? I think if Vietnam got in it could be a good UU for them and similar to the Turtle Ship from what I've known.

For the Maya, a ranged unit that uses bees would be interesting and definitely unique but we have yet to have a Mesoamerican spear thrower unit yet, so unless the devs did their extensive research, the latter is more likely.

Did not know about them, no--the URL you planned to enter doesn't seem to work--could you replace it or link the URL here? I looked up the unit online but didn't see much info on it unfortunately. Sounds cool though!

Spear-throwers are a bit tired, I would say, but I guess it's an easy pick if we favor the atlatl over the macahuitl for example.

 

[Zaarin]

Kristina was quite the big personality, very eccentric. While her achievements are forgettable, the anecdotes from her reign are larger than life.

I agree. I'm just saying if there's one female leader in Civ6 who doesn't stand out for her accomplishments as a ruler (not as an individual--by all accounts she was brilliant), it's Kristina. Some people (including me) quibble about CdM and Cleopatra, but both were accomplished if ill-starred leaders.

He's been in the game so often I am reminded of the repeat Montezuma (noting the caveat that Montezuma in Civ IV at least was Montezuma II rather than Montezuma I).

I'm not convinced that Firaxis knows the difference.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

She's Greek (another one...) and she's occupying Hatshepsut's seat so I don't like her .

Calling her Greek vastly oversimplifies it. She was from a 'Greek' (Macedonian) family tree, they were vastly removed from it by her rule (they ruled for almost 300 years, and she was at the tail end, and Macedon was subjugated well before she was even born). At what point is a culture different is certainly a grey area and their culture was certainly different than that of the New Kingdom, but culture and ruling family changed all the time. Are you only allowed to be Egyptian if you were from a Upper Egypt family?

 

[Zaarin]

Calling her Greek vastly oversimplifies it. She was from a 'Greek' (Macedonian) family tree, they were vastly removed from it by her rule (they ruled for almost 300 years, and she was at the tail end, and Macedon was subjugated well before she was even born). At what point is a culture different is certainly a grey area and their culture was certainly different than that of the New Kingdom, but culture and ruling family changed all the time. Are you only allowed to be Egyptian if you were from a Upper Egypt family?

The Ptolemies were not Egyptian, were proud of not being Egyptian, and were hated by the Egyptians for not being Egyptian. Cleopatra gained support from the Egyptian people by being the first Ptolemy to bother even learning Coptic. So it's really a moot question when the Ptolemies are all too happy to answer it for you. (But to answer it in a little more detail: the Egyptians had no real concept of "racial identity." Egyptians were a very ethnically diverse people. While most pharaohs were what we'd call "Mediterranean," in truth they ranged from black to white. Skin color was not a meaningful metric in Egypt. To them what mattered was that you were culturally Egyptian--to the extent that until the New Kingdom they didn't even believe non-Egyptians had souls. The Ptolemies were culturally Hellenistic. They called themselves pharaohs and syncretized some Egyptian deities, but they never accepted Egyptian culture and always maintained a divide between themselves and the people of Egypt. To the Egyptian people, they were not Egyptian, any more than Alexander was Persian, despite claiming the title shahanshah.)