Pact of the Nilhorn

[Grey Fox]

I don't really like this in its current form. Not as a wonder any ways. That it has survived in the same shape and form for so long is beyond me.

I suggest making it some kind of ritual you can only do if you've reached certain criteria like the following;

1. You have found the Nilhorn hill dwelling. A sort of fort on a hill with the 3 giants fortified (held) on it.
2. You have not attacked them.
3. You know Cartography.
4. Maybe something else fitting the lore about them...

Might not even need to be in every game. Could be like the unique features.

 

[Grey Fox]

I guess no one agrees or disagrees with me? Or is it that no one care about this topic?

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

The stooges are great for elves to make good use of because they don't get catapults. I know it is not what you asked about though kinda felt sorry for ya, no one wanted respond to you

As to the topic as long as it isn't nerfing or getting rid of it, then it is ok.

 

[loocas]

If there were a hill giant specific lair then it could happen through an event if it were near one's borders. What I don't like about it is that it happens every game, the same way. It's gotten quite boring.

 

[WarKirby]

I don't really like this in its current form. Not as a wonder any ways. That it has survived in the same shape and form for so long is beyond me.

I suggest making it some kind of ritual you can only do if you've reached certain criteria like the following;

1. You have found the Nilhorn hill dwelling. A sort of fort on a hill with the 3 giants fortified (held) on it.
2. You have not attacked them.
3. You know Cartography.
4. Maybe something else fitting the lore about them...

Might not even need to be in every game. Could be like the unique features.

I've never, ever found this dwelling you speak of.

I like Pact of the Nilhorn as is,, mostly. Maybe just boosting it's tech prereq instead ?

 

[Sarisin]

Sorry, I have to say I like it the way it is now.

It is one of my favorite early Wonders in the game and I think the reward of getting the Stooges in the early going really helps you with defending against the barbs and later for bombardment.

I especially like it when I am lucky enough to get a Great Engineer from a dungeon/lair. You can bet that GP will be used to build the Pact of Nilhorn.

I can usually build this Wonder, but the AI has beaten me to it a few times.

I like your ideas, but am happy with it in its current way.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still prefer making it so that Hill Giants are buildable, but have the wonder as a prereq.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've never, ever found this dwelling you speak of.

I like Pact of the Nilhorn as is,, mostly. Maybe just boosting it's tech prereq instead ?

No it doesn't exist, I meant that the giant dwelling would be spawned like unique feature or event.

 

[WarKirby]

I still prefer making it so that Hill Giants are buildable, but have the wonder as a prereq.

This.

I like this idea.

Rather than giving 3 of them, it could just allow them to be built. Make them moderately expensive so you can't spam millions

 

[Domingo]

I enjoy Pact as an early wonder. IMO, there should be a few more.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

I agree, if there is one aree in which ffh lacks, its wonders. In bts, at any given time, you have the option of building any number of wonders which make super cities and super specialist cities possible. FFH lacks this aspect of civ until the late game. This is, imo, what makes the Kuriotates weaker then they should be. If ffh had the same quantity of wonders as bts (or at least the same wonder vs. tech density), kuriotate mega cities would be quite a potent feature. Hence, I am against cutting a decent early game wonder that is quite balanced and serves a distinct purpose.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd disagree that it's quite balanced, though. I steamroll all my neighbors every time when I build PotN

 

[Grey Fox]

I do not think the wonder is balanced in its current implementation.

My reasoning behind this suggestion is to make it harder to get them early (less chance someone will steamroll another player with them), less frequent appearance in games to make it stand out more, and make it feel like the Nilhorn giants are part of the world.
And for "realism"-factors, a pact does not feel like a wonder, but a ritual. And I do not understand why the industrious leaders have an easier time allying with these Hill Giant.
If anything, charismatic leaders should.

But I agree with the fact that there aren't enough early wonders to make Industrious and builder civs benefit much from their trait.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

From my experience steamrolling is more a factor of difficulty or AI screw ups than anything else. If you put the same large quantity of hammers and time into warriors/axemen/catapults in the same circumstance, you would probably steamroll even more, but that's just anecdotal form my own personal experience.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I like the Stooges too, I just hate losing them to random Hunters (especially since they have a bad habit of defending the stack).

As Avahz said, they're awesome for the Elves to give them some non-magic Bombardment, but I honestly love them for all Civs. Mob I paired with Bombardment abilities makes me happier than Catapults, and early on they can farm XP off of your neighbours quite easily

As for it fitting the lore...I always thought it was a cute story but it does seem more event/ritual-ish than a buildable wonder, and it is a shame that it does show up every game (and the AI usually does an awful job using the Stooges...at all), but I don't think I'd want to lose it either. Hill Giants in general are sweet creatures in this game (barring the ones that wreck your Scouts for giggles). I really love that little event with the Pigs

I suppose it could be possible to make it a World Improvement with event triggers upon entry (either as the PoN or The Village of Oriel), so that it doesn't appear every game but it is still available. The only problem I have with that is it strikes me as being too "luck-based" as to who gets a hold of the Stooges, as opposed to it being a valid strategy to try and grab Catography and build the Pact.

 

[SwampCow]

From my experience steamrolling is more a factor of difficulty or AI screw ups than anything else. If you put the same large quantity of hammers and time into warriors/axemen/catapults in the same circumstance, you would probably steamroll even more, but that's just anecdotal form my own personal experience.

Yeah this is a fair assessment. I always push for PoN but at higher difficulty settings, you can't steamroll anything with them. As an example, if the Hippus simply went straight for horses and build 7 or 8 horsemen, that is much more formidable. And a hunter with only a couple of promotions can easily tank one of the giants.

The Pact is best for giving you some early bombardment and unaligned options. Mine spend most time killing scouts and warriors escorting settlers. It is a great way to protect areas you want to settle without having to go to war with your neighbors. Nothing is more annoying than when civs spam out settlers and start stealing your prime real estate.

I love it as is.

 

[Ranos]

I think the Pact should be an event. Make it happen only once per game at a random time in the first 100 turns or so. This would take it away from the human player always getting that early power and make it fit the lore better.

 

[Sarisin]

I think the Pact should be an event. Make it happen only once per game at a random time in the first 100 turns or so. This would take it away from the human player always getting that early power and make it fit the lore better.

I've been beaten to that Wonder about 50% of the time by the AI.

Only if I am lucky enough to get a Great Engineer from a lair can I be sure I will get Pact of the Nilhorn.

Cassiel is often the culprit who beats me too it.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

I've been beaten to that Wonder about 50% of the time by the AI.

Only if I am lucky enough to get a Great Engineer from a lair can I be sure I will get Pact of the Nilhorn.

Cassiel is often the culprit who beats me too it.

So the AI is working as intended? There should be competition for wonders. 50% is a damn good success rate too, if you were playing against good opponents.

 

[HadesScorn]

Here's a thought. Have the wonder be similar to a religious building, but build-able on Cartography with a Great Bard. The Wonder then allows you to build National Unit: Hill Giant with a limit of X. Fits the flavor, prevents it from showing every game, and actually makes it worth it to invest in Bard GPP when you are not trying for a cultural victory.

Thoughts?