BiteInTheMark
Deity
Go ingame and open the civilopedia, you can alt+tab between civ and the sheet. Ive listed the pantheons in the same order as the civilopedia does.
Pantheon Rating
- Thread starter BiteInTheMark
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
So far only 5 data sets, thats a bit too few to get a reliable view over the pantheons, but I try to summarize what I see.
- Most pantheons seem to be in a good state of balance (strength between 4-6)
- God of Craftsmen, God-King and God of the Sun seem to be the weakesst of all (strength between 3-4) [I didnt count Goddes of Love into this, cause there are only 3 opinions about it.]
- Especially God of the Sun seems very poorly, its not only rated as weak, its "coolness" value is also the lowest of all
- The strongest pantheons are God of Nature, Goddess of Renewal and Spirit of Desert. All 3 are environmental based pantheons which arnt linked directly to improvements
- Their coolness rating is also high, together with stars and sky, another environmental pantheon
- God of Wisdom may be also strong, but the data set is poor
- Most pantheons seem to be in a good state of balance (strength between 4-6)
- God of Craftsmen, God-King and God of the Sun seem to be the weakesst of all (strength between 3-4) [I didnt count Goddes of Love into this, cause there are only 3 opinions about it.]
- Especially God of the Sun seems very poorly, its not only rated as weak, its "coolness" value is also the lowest of all
- The strongest pantheons are God of Nature, Goddess of Renewal and Spirit of Desert. All 3 are environmental based pantheons which arnt linked directly to improvements
- Their coolness rating is also high, together with stars and sky, another environmental pantheon
- God of Wisdom may be also strong, but the data set is poor
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,387
I think you shouldn't look at God of Wisdom and Commerce much, they were changed since those votes were made. I tried new GoWisdom like twice and it felt very strong, but my experience is obviously limited - I didn't play much on the current version.
I also had problems making the votes. Why? Half of those pantheons are resource dependent. Either you get those resource, or you don't. Let's say Spirit of the Deserts - Deserts aren't super common on my starting locations, but the pantheon seems like it'd be strong if they were there. I was tempted to give it 1/10 because I have never started in a location desert-heavy enough, but I gave it 4 because I know were that to occur, it'd be better. Same with Goddess of the Hunt, in the right case it's OP, but how often does that happen? In case of resource/terrain pantheons it's pretty hard to make a good judgement.
I also had problems making the votes. Why? Half of those pantheons are resource dependent. Either you get those resource, or you don't. Let's say Spirit of the Deserts - Deserts aren't super common on my starting locations, but the pantheon seems like it'd be strong if they were there. I was tempted to give it 1/10 because I have never started in a location desert-heavy enough, but I gave it 4 because I know were that to occur, it'd be better. Same with Goddess of the Hunt, in the right case it's OP, but how often does that happen? In case of resource/terrain pantheons it's pretty hard to make a good judgement.
The correct way to use this 'data' would be to acknowledge there isn't enough, then stop talking instead of summarizing.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
I didnt wanted to let the effort be wasted.
There is low data, yes, but you can already see some tendency. God of the Sun seems to greatly underperform, also Craftsmen, Goddess of Love and God-King should be looked at.
People can have whatever opinions they want, God of the Sun is great and math backs it up.
Love and Craftsmen have been unpopular basically forever. The data didn't reveal anything about them.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
In your capital, yeah. I dont know which map scripts your playing, but the amount of bonus ressources on communitas for example isnt normal. On every other map I can be happy to have 5-6 Wheat in my empire. In most cases 2 or 3 in the capital but kinda none around it. And if I want Gold+Faith in my cities, I pick commerce.
Minh Le
King
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2018
- Messages
- 817
God of Sun is fantastic if you have 3 wheats in your capital, even 2 is enough. With 2 wheats its 10 more yield with a single pantheon (6 food, 2 gold, 2 faith), its amazing. The only problem with it is its rather hard to found using it. I'd happily pick it with a faith base civ who can found with a weak faith pantheon.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
It sounds fine, but in most cases I go settler after finishing monument and shrine, so I didnt get the faith and gold, and the extra food is kinda wasted cause I produce settler and didnt grow. God of Commerce gives me the same, without the need for a building, and before Iam able to build a granary in my secondary city, I normally can build a road towards it.
I see the point why to go for it, the capital of warmongers can grow big while they spam units instead of settlers and its easier to catch something essential like the Zeus statue, but its simply not my style. And it seems other see it similar.
Feel free to add your rating too.
Minh Le
King
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2018
- Messages
- 817
50% food is added as Settler production so 6 food equal 3 hammer in your case. Im not build granary very often but if I go for God of Sun its gonna be my 3rd building. The strength of this strategy is you have so many food it enable you to work more production tiles/specialists while still growing fast. Your progression in the early game will be significantly faster. Its very good not only for Authority warmonger but also progress and tradition.
pineappledan
Deity
JamesNinelives
Emperor
I guess the idea of this was to specifically ask people to do the survey and see if anything interesting turns up there. I don't think it's a bad idea.
As has been mentioned, with such a small sample we can't really draw meaningful comparisons in terms of balance.
I think polls can be a fun thing to do socially though. For example, I wanted to say that I like Goddess of Love a lot!
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Ok, the amount of data isnt that big, but it already shows some tendencies:
- Most of the pantheons are in the range of 4-6, which means, they are balanced
- Strongest pantheons are God of Wisdom with a power rating of 6.29 and God of Commerce with a power rating of 6.00 (both are the latest changed pantheons)
- Followed by Spirit of Desert (5.89), Goddess of Springtime and Goddess of Beauty (5.75), Goddes of Nature (5.57)
- The weakest rated pantheon are God of the Sun (3.13), God-King (3.14, was buffed in the meantime), God of Craftsmen (3.33) and the Goddes of Love (3.86)
- God of the Sun has also the lowest coolness-factor (3.25)
- It stands out, that the terrain related pantheons (Desert, Tundra, Mountains, Forest/Jungle) are seen as very cool pantheons (6.29+) (God of Purity reach only a rating of 5)
- Followed by Goddess of Beauty and God of the Hunt (the "new" pantheons God of Commerce and God of Wisdom reach both a coolness rating of 6)
Conclusion:
- The "new" pantheons Commerce and Wisdom may be a bit too strong, I would recommend considering a small nerf, or atleast stronger observation in AI games
- God of the Sun and God of Craftsmen are rated bad, none of them get any vote above the avarage rating of 5, they need to be changed
- For God of the Sun, I would recommend a complete rework, cause its mechanic is rated also bad (Maybe a reversed pantheon, which give benefits based on the faith output? Or simply a food driven version of God of Commerce?)
- God of the Craftsmen is still considered as impractical to found a religion, either the chance to found with it should be increased or it should give better unique benefits (general faster construction rate? Less road maintenance?)
- If reworks are considered for the future, they should look more like the terrain related pantheons, cause those are seen as funny/good/cool
- Most of the pantheons are in the range of 4-6, which means, they are balanced
- Strongest pantheons are God of Wisdom with a power rating of 6.29 and God of Commerce with a power rating of 6.00 (both are the latest changed pantheons)
- Followed by Spirit of Desert (5.89), Goddess of Springtime and Goddess of Beauty (5.75), Goddes of Nature (5.57)
- The weakest rated pantheon are God of the Sun (3.13), God-King (3.14, was buffed in the meantime), God of Craftsmen (3.33) and the Goddes of Love (3.86)
- God of the Sun has also the lowest coolness-factor (3.25)
- It stands out, that the terrain related pantheons (Desert, Tundra, Mountains, Forest/Jungle) are seen as very cool pantheons (6.29+) (God of Purity reach only a rating of 5)
- Followed by Goddess of Beauty and God of the Hunt (the "new" pantheons God of Commerce and God of Wisdom reach both a coolness rating of 6)
Conclusion:
- The "new" pantheons Commerce and Wisdom may be a bit too strong, I would recommend considering a small nerf, or atleast stronger observation in AI games
- God of the Sun and God of Craftsmen are rated bad, none of them get any vote above the avarage rating of 5, they need to be changed
- For God of the Sun, I would recommend a complete rework, cause its mechanic is rated also bad (Maybe a reversed pantheon, which give benefits based on the faith output? Or simply a food driven version of God of Commerce?)
- God of the Craftsmen is still considered as impractical to found a religion, either the chance to found with it should be increased or it should give better unique benefits (general faster construction rate? Less road maintenance?)
- If reworks are considered for the future, they should look more like the terrain related pantheons, cause those are seen as funny/good/cool
I don't know why God of the Sun gets such a bad rap. For a Tradition player that finds themselves with wheat in the area, its awesome:
1) Even 2 wheat contributes huge growth, and in the times you get 3 its insane.
2) Ability to go granary before shrine, same faith but even more growth. Unlike some other pantheons you can get the extra faith moving very quickly without having to take your cities in a "weird" direction.
Now, it is a niche pantheon, and I certainly wouldn't put it at the top, but its solid pantheon that does its job to me.
Now Craftsman, yeah its just bland and hard to found with...very niche to make it work (more so than Sun to me).
Commerce and Wisdom I don't think are OP in general, but with certain civs they become very strong. I am not opposed to a small nerf, but truly a small one.
chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,548
My opinion on the Pantheons.
God of the Sun is solid. Granaries basically become better Shrines which can be useful in a lot of scenarios (India, Mongolia), and don't underestimate that +3 Food from Wheat Farms. I think it's generally better than Fertility.
Craftsman suffers a bit in terms of Faith output and having enough Quarries to make it work in most games. Maybe +1 Faith on Stone or something would be nice.
Commerce/Wisdom are very general pantheons, Wisdom used to be OP but got nerfed, I don't think Commerce is OP.
I think most other pantheons are ok. I still don't really like Ancestor Worship, I think it's worse than Beauty for basically all Tradition civs.
God of the Sun is solid. Granaries basically become better Shrines which can be useful in a lot of scenarios (India, Mongolia), and don't underestimate that +3 Food from Wheat Farms. I think it's generally better than Fertility.
Craftsman suffers a bit in terms of Faith output and having enough Quarries to make it work in most games. Maybe +1 Faith on Stone or something would be nice.
Commerce/Wisdom are very general pantheons, Wisdom used to be OP but got nerfed, I don't think Commerce is OP.
I think most other pantheons are ok. I still don't really like Ancestor Worship, I think it's worse than Beauty for basically all Tradition civs.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Each improvement pantheon covers several ressources (God of open sky has for example sheeps, cattle and horses), but God of the Sun is extremly specific. The amount of food is relative high in the earliest stages of the game, but diminish very fast in comparison to other food sources, theres absolutly no late game potential. Fertility garantee atleast 2 sources of food/faith in each city, something that will not happen with God of the Sun. And 25% faster growth can make a huge difference, its nearly as much as the complete scaler of tradition. But I think it isnt liked that much cause its extremly specific and nearly always, there will be a good alternative to pick.
Commerce and Wisdom can grow the whole game, I think it shouldnt be difficult to reach 20 follower and 50 Gold in each city to get 10 faith, which is a huge sum. Together with Ancestor Worship great if you want to go later for Holy Land or To the Glory of Gods.
None of your points are "wrong", but I will argue with the degrees of your statements and their ultimate conclusion.
1) "God of the Sun is extremely specific". This is technically true, it only affects one resource. But the statement implies "therefore, there isn't enough benefit for a good pantheon". That I will argue. Wheat is one of the most common resources on several maps, and is often found in clusters.
More importantly, its presence is very obvious. I am not working with hidden resources that may or may not come up (like stone). By the time I am getting a pantheon, I know exactly how much wheat I am going to be working with, especially if I'm playing Tall and have mapped out most of city sites.
So is the pantheon niche? Absolutely. There are many starts where I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole. But there are starts that it is great for, and when I am choosing my pantheon, I always know whether I am in one of those starts or not. So the specific-ness of the pantheon has no bearing on its power. I use it when its good, and don't use it when its bad.
2) "The amount of food is relative high in the earliest stages of the game, but diminish very fast in comparison to other food sources". Again these statements are true to a point, but not to the degree that you are implying.
First, no other food source approaches wheat with a +3 food added on top. And as sources improve, so does wheat (often even faster). At no point in the game does anything beat the food that a Sun wheat farm can generate.
Ultimately "diminish very fast" is relative. Does it diminish fast compared to other food....no I don't see that at all. If your implying that "food's value diminishes quickly", than that brings me to the 3rd topic.
3) "theres absolutly no late game potential." Again, I agree with the fundamental statement. I commonly advocate that food becomes very weak in the late game, and have used that argument to advocate strengthening buildings like Agribusiness and Medical labs. You are correct that Sun has no real staying power in my late game.
But the statement implies that this is a flaw in the pantheon, and its not. Some pantheons are steady as she goes, some scale later on, and some are all front-loaded. God of the Sun is an unabashed early game kind of pantheon. It gives you an incredible shot in the arm right at the beginning of the game. And like many early game bonuses...its up to you to take advantage of it. If you don't...that's not the fault of the pantheon.
I have used Sun to great effect, and once I am using my early game advantages to manifest a strong middle game, I know longer care if the pantheon begins to taper away. It did its job, I am thankfully for it, and I move on.
