1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

pantheons that can't usually found a religion

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by obnosis, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. obnosis

    obnosis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    usually tested with king difficulty/12 civs

    - god of the expanse: tested with russia for the border expanse bonus. it requires too many border procs to usually found a religion. considering the amount of turns it gets to proc, you will most often fall behind.
    - god of the craftsmen: even when there is plenty of room for quarries, you'll need to research construction first and then build the quarries /stone works. that puts your faith generation on hold for quite some turns
    - god of the sea: same as god of the craftsmen if you have no atols. you need the research and the building of workboats to finally start generating faith.

    maybe i am doing something wrong, but i don't see how i can hurry up the faith generation for any of these pantheons and i usually come short of founding. the "of the expanse" pantheon is particularly good for russia so it's a shame not to benefit from it all game long.
     
  2. Rafs

    Rafs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    35
    I've never had any trouble founding with expanse just go wide with autority or go tradition, god of the sea and craftsmen are harder to found with though. But I think some pantheons will be good very situationally and that's ok. I think the key component to found is if you are expanding and placing shrines/befriending faith city states (if you get lucky), pantheon is a good boost to faith but you shouldn't rely exclusively on it.
     
  3. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    756
    God of the Expanse - It's foundable, you just need to probably aim for Tradition and then get several expansions - two strategies that don't synchronize well together. Furthermore, while the former God of the Expanse was massively powerful with age scaling, the current one is rather dry and doesn't give much as the game goes on. So I'm inclined to think that it needs a re-design of sorts or certainly a buff.

    God of Craftsmen - Yeah, I have to agree with you on this one. The tech comes late, yet the bonus gives no more than any other Pantheon - furthermore, if you don't have a Quarry resource near some city, you can't even build the building that benefits from the Pantheon! Again, this is an example of something that could use some help.

    God of the Sea - Here I must disagree. I've found this one of the most reliable Pantheons to found with. When I take it, I make a point of noting where Fish are on the map and intentionally expand to places that have 3 or more, or just 2 if necessary. If I conquer, I'll often just burn a city to the ground if it's inland or has less than 2 sea resources. Anyways, in my experience and if you're paying attention, I've found it quite easy to get 3-6 sea resources PER CITY, which is rather massive - and although Work Boats require a little investment, they pay off for themselves quite quickly.
     
  4. pza

    pza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Messages:
    252
    I'm currently making an excel sheet that estimates faith accrued from pantheon until turn 100 (under many assumptions), when religions are expected to be founded on average, so that the pantheons are more comparable in terms of faith generation for a religion. I'll share with you guys when it's done.

    For this purpose I did a test run with russia and god of the expanse. (i assume the huns do well, too.) here are my results:
    Spoiler :
    russia 100.jpg

    peaceful game so far. had a pantheon around turn 30. thanks to lapis lazuli and tradition i had exceptional amounts of border growths. before i had the pantheon the capital had 2 border growths. 25 total border growths, that means 23*15=345 faith accrued. i don't think much more than that is realistic, since this was already a very lucky start. so far it's one of the better pantheons for faith acquisition i calculated.

     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    756
    pza - I appreciate that! I did some estimations some time ago on what each Pantheon is capable of doing, and yeah, there are many assumptions...I've always figured though that based on Celts's 3 Faith per turn per city, that 3 Faith per turn per city for every Pantheon is a good number to aim for, with the exceptions being the crazy Faith Pantheons (like Ancestor Worship, God of Commerce, Wisdom). Expanse would fit in here as well, but it scales weirdly. It used to give 25 Faith without age scaling, which I thought was much more appropriate. The border growth bonus could be much larger, too (like 100% could be fun...).
     
  6. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    3 per city is NOT a good number. The Celts have a very above average amount of faith, which is intended.
     
  7. Workerspam

    Workerspam Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    259
    I've found God of the Sea to be among the most consistent founding pantheons. I even had a recent game where I founded with GotS without a sea based monopoly luxury; an abundance of fish and a three scattered sea luxuries were enough.

    Keys to founding with GotS:
    1. Have an abundance of sea based resources within settling range. Seems obvious but it's worth noting; you're not founding off two fish and an atoll. Luxury monopolies are best since you're guaranteed to have many within settling range but as I mentioned it's occasionally possible without them. You should aim for working 10 sea resources in your first 4 cities.
    2. Research Trapping and Fishing within your first 3 techs. Sometimes I fit in Pottery, sometimes I beeline Fishing;depends on the start I get. If you beeline Fishing it's possible have work boats out prior to picking your pantheon.
    3. Purchase/build work boats as soon as you unlock them. Then alternate building Settlers and work boats in your capital for at least your next 3 cities. This may be the hidden secret of this pantheon; it's possible to work an improved sea resource on the same turn you found your new city.
    The key is pumping out Settlers and work boats. Your secondary cities can pick up the work boat and settler production once they have the production to do so. I'll fit in a few military units to hold off barbarians but the bulk of my military will be built after my first 4 cities are settled. I'll occasionally fit in a Well or Granary in my capital but nothing else until I'm working 10 improved sea resources.
     
    Mad Madigan likes this.
  8. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    264
    The Celts get 3 faith per city because none of their pantheons produce any faith. If you add shrines in every city you get 5 per, which is still about average for faith generation pre-founding. It's the Pictish Warrior faith-on-kill that really helps their faith generation and lets them get their religion in time, otherwise they'd probably never found with just 5 faith per city. If you do the math you need something more like 7-8 faith per city (including Shrines) and at least 4-5 cities)to guarantee a religion if you don't have a UA or a lucky faith rune helping you. So when I'm picking a pantheon (and I'm not a Civ with a UA that helps me guarantee a religion) with the intent to found I try to get one that is going to get me, on average, 4-6 extra faith per city. If I just want some good early bonuses with the intent to conquer a neighboring holy city then I'll just look for total non-faith yields given my starting terrain.
     
  9. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    264
    I can second this strategy. If the map terrain works out, I have definitely been able to found a religion following a similar plan. And this was before the sea luxury resources were buffed a few patches ago!
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,513
    Location:
    Beijing
    I found religions fairly often using God of the Sea and God of Craftsmen.

    This must be playing with events.

    Without events I usually aim to reach about 25 faith total. Less than that if you begin faith early, more if you begin late. The event system adds so much faith to the system that I had to stop playing with it, faith sources such as markets become useless.
     
  11. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    248
    The 3-6 sea resources thing is definitely not a vanilla map script experience, and if i recall correctly, one of the reasons communitas is so unbalancing, there's to many fishes and atolls on that script.
    Average of 3 per city is a much more realistic number, and its still doable to found whit this pantheon...so long as you don't have a zulu like civ as your neighbor.
     
    pza likes this.
  12. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    I think god of the expanse is totally fine, and any buff would probably make it too good in the situations it gets used. I posted a play through with Russia using it and I easily found the first religion in the game around t85. It's meant for the few civs that have natural border growth bonuses (only one of which is Russia).

    Also, in general I think it's OK for some pantheons to be weaker at founding. Whenever I play a warmonger civ I plan to conquer a religion and don't waste resources trying to found my own. I that case I often take a pantheon with better short term food/production/culture/etc bonuses and don't care about faith.
     
  13. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    193
    I have found God of the Sea a reliable founder with the right starts, particularly Coral.
     
  14. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    264
    @CrazyG Yes, the events system is currently very poorly tuned when it comes to yield balancing. If you play with events on and don't get the faith-generating events early enough you can pretty much kiss your religion goodbye. Thinking about it in total faith per turn makes good sense as many of the terrain-based pantheons will give certain cities way more faith output than others. I still think Purity, Renewal, and Love are some of the most consistent for founding, but Commerce, Expanse, Sea, Wisdom, Nature, Protection, and War are also all good in niche circumstances (or playing as certain Civs like Carthage (Commerce) or Japan (Protection)). All of the other pantheons are much more difficult to get good faith generation from, but produce great extra yields that make them worth considering if you don't intend to found or have some UA that helps you found easier.

    The only pantheon I see very little use for is Fertility, since you can only ever get 2 faith per city from it, and the bonus food and growth is not unique enough, especially as there are several other pantheons that provide additional food if you really need it. However, just buffing it is probably not the right answer either. Maybe reduce it to +1 food on Shrines/Wells/Watermills but add some component that gives extra happiness to help with the larger population?
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,513
    Location:
    Beijing
    Faith monopolies, faith natural wonders, UAs that provide faith, or just expanding and building shrines that quickly. I can think of plenty of ways to make it work
     
  16. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    264
    Yes, it's totally possible to found a religion using Fertility, but in any of the cases you listed, there was probably a better pantheon to pick. For example, if I had an easy Incense/Wine/Tobacco monopoly to work towards in my first few cities, Springtime would probably be a much better choice.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,206
    Fertility is just great to me right now. It’s a great all around pantheon, always useful for any play
     
  18. balinte

    balinte Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2016
    Messages:
    61
    Fertility is broken imo
    25% growth is the full tradition scaler, basically instantly
    And it even futher stacked with 2+2×.25 food just from the pantheon itself.
    Ive been going fertility almost every single game even before the buff like 3 patches ago, but now i feel like there isnt really other optimal choices rly.
    It snowballs way harder than anything and also is managable to found with
    Actually a bit suprised that only now fertility has been brought up
     
  19. infidel88

    infidel88 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Yuggoth
    Drowned God (which is way cooler name than God of the Sea) on communitas is not only certain founding option, but also instant uber tiles if you start next to 2 sea resources. It's like starting with lower difficulty level. I was also of an opinion that it's crap, but listened to wise people here and... You beeline fishing, buy work boats and you get, if Im not mistaken 5:c5food:2:c5production:1:c5faith:2:c5gold: with lighthouse, which should be your goto building in that case. And you get 3:c5food: in coast cities. This is even before classical or 1 science into classical (lighthouses are on sailing, right?). Even so - to get such yields in classical you need GP improvement.
     
  20. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    756
    I don't play Communitas because I realize it's imba. It's been OK on other scripts - I've tried Planet Simulator lately, but I'm realizing that this may be more like Communitas than anything else.
     
    vyyt likes this.

Share This Page