Paradrop ability as a promotion ???

[ZiP!]

I'm posting here hoping that's fine (first I wanted to post on General CIV Discussions but thought it might be better here).

Sorry if this suggestion has already been discussed, though it's been a while I'm on CIV forums here and I never came across something like it.

Ok now back to the topic. One of the units I miss the most from previous Civ games (played 2 and 3) is the paratrooper (I always found it added a great tactical depth to the game). So of course one of the units I wanted re-put in CIV was the para
But then I thought : why not make the paradrop ability a promotion ? (like amphibious ability : basically most units can now be amphibious attackers...)
The promotion would be available to say all infantry type, prereq. : Combat 3 (or 4) promotion, maybe available also for the latest motorized vehicules (chinooks carrying tanks, anyone?), especially for MechInf.

To balance things a bit : maybe a paradropped unit should have a -25% strengh penality on the turn it gets paradropped (to simulate the time the unit gets to re-unite and setup, give the enemy some time to respond, and avoid rushes), and maybe implement a Paradrop II (prereq. : Para1 promotion, and maybe also Combat 5) ability where units don't get any penality anymore (or make it, say, 50% penality for Para1 and 25% for Para2)

I'd also give it for free for the marines maybe, or maybe only for the SEAL unit (to simulate their all'round training).

Maybe, also add a national (maybe even World) wonder giving it to all units built in the same city? (Much like the Red Cross for Medic 1)? Make the prereqs. like say, a fixed number of airports accross the nation?

This way we could avoid having to add an additional unit, and I think it even might be more realistic (I mean, not just the paratrooper divisions get paradrop training in modern armies, AFAIK)

Thank you for reading this, I hope it has been enriching

Cheers (and sorry for my bad english )

ZiP!

 

[dalek master]

I think its a good idea, but forget the marines thing and just make a para-trooper unit that starts with that ability.
There would have to be a animation espcialy for paratrooping though

oh well All ideas have to have some work in them

 

[The Great Apple]

I'm planning on implementing something similar for the 40k mod (deepstrike/teleport). In fact... I have implemented it, but not in the way you propose - it's not promotion based. I even wrote some AI code for the AI to handle it, though I haven't had a chance to test it and see if the AI does use it yet.

As it stands the code will have some rather major glitches with vanilla Civ, which I would need to fix, but won't have to opportunity to fix for quite some time. If nobody has released something to do this before I can I'll probably see if I can get it working generically.

 

[TheLopez]

I nominate TGA to do it

 

[snafusmith]

I think it would also be cool if paratroopers could be dropper onto enemy troops and fight them (like using paratroopers to storm a fort, similar to what the Germans did in WW2). Granted this would only goto dedicated paratrooper units (not a promotion) and would have some reduction in their fighting capability. Just a thought, everything else seems awesome, as I too desperately miss the paratrooper.

 

[The Great Apple]

Having a special parratrooper unit seems stupid. its just too specialised, I like the promotion idea better. A few question though:
1) Should they be able to move on the turn they land?
2) Should they be able to land on an enemy square?
3) How far should they be able to drop?
4) Should an airport be needed to drop units?

1) Configurable - I'd say yes, with a combat reduction (as per first post)
2) Yes - that's the whole point!
3) Configurable - Seeing as they are coming from cities I would say slightly more than 5 as a default. Maybe 10? Would need testing.
4) Configurable - Maybe it would give some bonus?

I nominate TGA to do it

Oooh, err. I've been nominated

Yeah, ok. I'll do it. I might release a version reasonably soon even, although I'd have to have somebody to test/debug some bits as I have no way of doing it myself.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Well, at the very least, you could release the code you have for the "teleport" option you discussed and someone could tinker with it to make it work. (I really want paradrops)

I think doing it as a promotion would be best because it will satisfy the most people. If some people want a special paratrooper unit, they can give it the free paradrop promotion, and if someone wants it to be a promotion, they can set it that way.

Perhaps doing a paradrop onto enemy units would have a penalty unless it was the paratrooper unit? In the same way amphibious warfare works... Dunno... just brain-storming here. It's not something you have to concern yourself with, TGA

 

[The Great Apple]

Well, at the very least, you could release the code you have for the "teleport" option you discussed and someone could tinker with it to make it work. (I really want paradrops)

That's what I was going to base it on.

Perhaps doing a paradrop onto enemy units would have a penalty unless it was the paratrooper unit? In the same way amphibious warfare works...

I won't be able to do that for a while - an SDK tweak would be needed, and I don't have/can't get a compiler. That would be ideal though! The main trouble with it is that the units are on the same square. Usaully combat happens square to square.

 

[mjs0]

I really like the basic idea of using the promotion system to allow specialization of units and for paradrops in particular.
I am not sure about the follow-up idea of a national wonder (similar to red cross for the medic promotion) so I voted yes with tweaks. I guess the thought of national wonder spam for every new cool promotion makes me nervous.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I won't be able to do that for a while - an SDK tweak would be needed, and I don't have/can't get a compiler. That would be ideal though! The main trouble with it is that the units are on the same square. Usaully combat happens square to square.

Well, it's still technically square to square... just not adjacent squares

Yeah, I don't really know how much would be required to get that working if that'd be much of an issue.

 

[The Great Apple]

Aaah right, that makes more sense. Would have to be no then, and maybe yes later!

It depends what you mean by "create new functions". I wouldn't need the SDK to make a unit paradrop as I can use CyUnit.setXY(iX, iY), the action buttons mod to make the buttons, and the square selection mod to allow the user to choose the square. The trick is combining them together to make it so that it does what I want it to do.

 

[ZiP!]

Hello all, and thanks for all the replies/attention !

My humble point of view, in response :

There would have to be a animation espcialy for paratrooping though

Well, I personnally don't care at all about the animation It sure would be beautiful, but in fact to tell you the truth I'm waiting in secret for someone to mod CIV to look like Civ2 so that I can play huge maps without problems or hindrances... the abscence of animation wouldn't bother me...

I nominate TGA to do it

Secunded Looks like you drew the short straw TGA
(in fact would have done it myself but I don't know at all how to mod / edit XML and python, let's not talk about the SDK...)

I think it would also be cool if paratroopers could be dropper onto enemy troops and fight them (like using paratroopers to storm a fort, similar to what the Germans did in WW2). Granted this would only goto dedicated paratrooper units (not a promotion) and would have some reduction in their fighting capability. Just a thought, everything else seems awesome, as I too desperately miss the paratrooper.

Or maybe : units with Para1 can be dropped on empty/friendly squares only, and units with Para2 can be dropped even on squares occupied by enemy units... (that would be another variant)

Having a special parratrooper unit seems stupid. its just too specialised, I like the promotion idea better. A few question though:
1) Should they be able to move on the turn they land?
2) Should they be able to land on an enemy square?
3) How far should they be able to drop?
4) Should an airport be needed to drop units?

1)Yes (IIRC it was No in Civ3 and Yes in Civ2. Way cooler with Yes if you ask me )
2) YES for me (think of those 1 tile islands !!!)
3) To be determined...
4) Don't know actually, would like to hear your opinion on this, people... But I think it would be cool if you could drop them from allies/OB cities also (think of the US drops on France the night before the amphibious assault on Normandy...)

Yeah, ok. I'll do it. I might release a version reasonably soon even, although I'd have to have somebody to test/debug some bits as I have no way of doing it myself.

Would be glad to do some testing (although I probably won't be around too much until next Thursday -- University final exams, and have yet to study 800+ pages )

Perhaps doing a paradrop onto enemy units would have a penalty unless it was the paratrooper unit? In the same way amphibious warfare works...

Yet another variant that could prove very good I mean, works fine for the Amphibious attribute, why wouldn't it for the Paradrop ??

I won't be able to do that for a while - an SDK tweak would be needed, and I don't have/can't get a compiler. That would be ideal though! The main trouble with it is that the units are on the same square. Usaully combat happens square to square.

Now as I told you before I don't know **** about modding, but wouldn't it be possible to implement a 2 components function :
1) Something like bombarding (so that the para attacks from it's original sqaure), Lethal bombing would simulate this well
2) If Para wins, move para to square ; if he looses, well...
So would be like that :
Lethal.Bomb[Target.Tile]
If Lethal.Bombing succesful : move Para.unit [Target.Tile]
Else Kill [Para.unit]
(might sound like chinese, first time in my life I try to write a code )

[...] so I voted yes with tweaks.

Actually I voted that also

I am not sure about the follow-up idea of a national wonder (similar to red cross for the medic promotion) so I voted yes with tweaks. I guess the thought of national wonder spam for every new cool promotion makes me nervous.

What about : the national wonder can only be built by a great general wich is consumed in the action (since the Great Generals seem to be "à la mode" these days...), much like prophets and shrines... Maybe even put this prereq for the RC also... (I think we have to wait for the expansion before further debate on this)



Oh and 2 final questions :

1) If you can actually drop the para on squares occupied by enemy units, and there are more than one unit on the square already that would cause a problem (where does the unit go if it wins? stays on the same tile as the enemy? ) Could we implement a rule like : no direct drop on enemy occupied tile unless only 1 enemy unit on that tile?
But then the 1 tile island drop would'nt work (except for the last defender) :/
[EDIT : now it gets complicated but : how about : if you group multiple Paras you can then drop them on a tile with multiple defenders, provided Nb of paras > or = the numbers of defenders... would fix that issue... all surviving paras are then moved to the square, the loosing ones are, well, dead anyway. Would this be too much to ask?]

2)... Any hope of making the AI use this function ? (at least in an acceptable way?)

I just can't help but think how much this could be a great addition to WW2 and modern scenarios (esp. for Normandy scenarios!). This would definitly address the lack of tactical possiblities in the late game.

Cheers

ZiP!

 

[The Great Apple]

You make a good point with the multiple units on tiles. One option would be to move the para to the nearest available tile... but then what if there weren't one.

I think the best idea is to have the para attempt to attack all the units on the tile in turn, until there are no more units, or there is no more para.

Anyway - while I think I could simulate the combat in python, it certainly won't be for the first release.

EDIT: As for the AI - I have some code that might work. It might not... but it might!

 

[The Great Apple]

Right, I've got a first draft - and it would be quite nice if somebody who can debug python can run it through the game to see how many nasty bugs I've got in it. I'd be very suprised if there aren't one or two typos (or just plain wrong code) in there! If you feel confident enough that you know what I've done wrong then please feel free to correct it, and test again.

One of the things I'd quite like to do is implement a range system similar to the current range system for aircraft... however I'm not sure exactly how that range is calculated. Anybody know?

To test - build a city, put an airport in it, and give you're unit the paradrop promotion (same icon as combat 1... but I've removed all the other promotions). The custom button should come up. When pressed a plot area should show. You should then be able to select a plot, and the unit will move there.

At the moment you can't paradrop to a plot occupied by enemy units, or one in fog of war. I might implement an option where if you attempt to drop into fog of war and the plot is already occupied you die automatically (like Civ 3) - and maybe a chance that you'll take random damage. I probably won't be able to do the "air assault" style combats until I get home.

There is a small (5% by default) chance that you the drop will miss, and land somewhere else nearby.

There is no AI as yet - I wanted to get the core thing working before I tried any fiddly bits.

Quite a bit should be configureable by .ini file, though I haven't done that before, so I may have done it wrong.

Once more - be warned, this version will almost certainly not work.

Download here

 

[zulu9812]

This was sounding like a really good idea. Was there any progress on it?

 

[Shqype]

Wow , can't believe nobody followed up with this.

You get some errors upon unmodified startup. This is the code:

def canParaPlot(self, pUnit, pPlot):
		if not (pPlot.isVisible(pUnit.getTeam(), 0)[b])[/b]:
			return false

You forgot the closing parenthese, simple enough to fix. The 'solutions' are bolded.

if [b]([/b]TGAUtils.isEnemyUnits(gc.getTeam(pUnit.getTeam()), pPlot)[b]):[/b]
			return false

Needs a colon, and I put the statement inside another set of parentheses.

Next there were some NameErrors with 'CyGlobalContext' and 'CvConfigParser' so I just added some imports and fixed them up. This is how the top of the code looks like now:

[b]from CvPythonExtensions import *[/b]
import CvParadropEventManager
import TGAUtils
[b]import CvConfigParser[/b]

gc = CyGlobalContext()

This next error I'm not sure how to fix ... any thoughts TGA?

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<string>", line 1, in ?
File "<string>", line 52, in load_module
File "CvEventInterface", line 19, in ?
File "CvCustomEventManager", line 69, in __init__
TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)

 

[The Great Apple]

This next error I'm not sure how to fix ... any thoughts TGA?

Hmm - looks like I was incorrectly using the event manager.

I think the __init__ function in CvParaDropEventManger.py should read:

	def __init__(self, eventManager):
		eventManager.addEventHandler("Update", self.onUpdate, True)
		eventManager.addEventHandler("mouseEvent", self.onMouseEvent)
		eventManager.addEventHandler("unitSelected", self.onUnitSelected)

		self.chooserActive = 0
		self.pUnit = 0

I'm getting back home in just over a week, so I should be able to pick this up properly then.

 

[Officer Reene]

Im not sure, but may be you guys can give your thoughts on this...


why not base it off the airport building ?

I mean make it only for paratroopers (or infantry with paratroop promotions - which ever way you decide to take it)

but remove the transport "in city part"...?

of course you could make new restrictions on how it can be deployed....

Im just saying maybe using the airport (transport) building (or parts) as a template to help make this unit?

(adding animations and so forth...)



forgive me, Im not a coder but I thought this idea might make it easier to make this unit a reality....

sorry if this doesnt help... but I try to help... really

 

[chef pablo]

You should add this to the lopez base mod and the promotion happen there.
As far as dropping the unit in an occupied tile,DONT, the 81st and 101st dont like to drop in hot zones thats not what their for.The purpouse for airborn units is to drop behind enemy lines sever communications,and supply.The only units that drop hot are speacial forces.

 

[dh_epic]

The biggest problem with a paratrooper is pathfinding. The AI has a hard time with anything that complicates movement. Zone of Control was one thing they simply WOULD NOT do in Civilization 4, and "teleporting" is probably even more dangerous. The AI just has a hard time using it, and a hard time responding to it.

Truthfully, I haven't even had much of a chance to see how the AI responds to air units. I suspect they have a hard time with these, too.

The biggest challenge is the AI. It's not insurmountable, but it's so big that you might as well choose between adding a single paratrooper unit, or adding "Minor Civilizations". A single paratrooper unit, or adding "Attrition Damage". It really is that big an undertaking.