Paris : Olympic torch extinguished by Human Rights activists, events are cancelled

[Trajan12]

It's also why most Americans who have never lived in another country before cannot comprehend why democracy can't work else where.

Yeah like in Europe.

 

[holy king]

Yeah like in Europe.

what? democracy in europe? what? more than 2 parties?

 

[Ramius75]

Another strawman. Did I say the leadership in China is useless? Congrats on your brilliant debating tactics

Originally Posted by aelf View Post
Really, you're very entertaining. Maybe I'll get there. But as of now, can I not point to the blindingly obvious horrible track record of the CCP and the equally obvious fact that the majority of China's people are still poor while corruption is rampant and the rich are getting richer?

merely to point out that the CPC had made quite an impressive improvement of life for the Chinese. True, that there is still a long way to go. But u have to give them the credit.

So, which part of far to go do you not understand? And economic growth can be much more equal than that.

its impossible to be equal. coz opportunity and human ability are different too.

So, by your logic, they'd rather hire you, then?

never in my wildest dream. But maybe next time, my company could serve them.

Is this not an admission of defeat? Well, I haven't been humbled by you, despite your clear attempts, that's certain.

ur choice.

Tsk tsk. Do you not know about LKY's pet projects in China, such as the Suzhou Industrial Park? What happened to it? Even LKY can fail.

Of coz, my factory is in Suzhou... its getting better. The project is not a failure.

Not everyone here will agree, for example. Somehow you assume it to be true.

Thats my observant thru traveling to many places. So far. all countries suffer the same problem.

Another failed attempt at a jab at my background. My family wasn't rich to begin with. We were quite poor and lived in a rented shophouse in Jakarta when I was young. I know what it's like to be both, and I know how to use money wisely, such as using it to get a proper education.

My bad then. from ur posts i thought that ur quite well to do.

Nothing to do with what I said.

you claimed singapore is a bad place to start a business in another post.

So, might makes right or not?

unfortunately, yes.

Low labour prices benefit established companies like MNCs. New businesses are hurt by low income and high property prices.

its a supply and demand problem. find a good product that no one can refuse... Singapore is still of opportunity IMHO. and rich ppl are plentiful.

About?

About the progress in China and Singapore. im not critical of the economical improvement. i think they both did a good job so far. We are a little OT thou.

The difference is I can tell you exactly what I do not like about it, in real terms, instead of waffling about. And you sound really jealous. Any personal issues?

its ur right to complain. I merely telling my side of the story. I have nothing to be jealous of. I can attain whatever i want on my own.

Yeah, but in both countries you are defending the elites always win. Don't you have a coherent argument?

Im always consistent. Nobody can win all the time, even the elites have to give in at times.

The reality is you are better off talking in C++ than in political language.

Well, thats ur opinion. But this is also another OOT.

 

[alex994]

Gone for a day, and so much more stuff has happened

 

[jessiecat]

Yeah like in Europe.

Having lived in Canada, America and Europe I've come to the conclusion that few Americans are well educated about the rest of the world. So it's not surprising that they have little knowledge or understanding about how people in other countries live. Hence their often arrogant and bombastic treatment of other countries. There are exceptions of course. But, in general, people in other countries are far more knowledgable about America and thus in a stronger position to express their opinion about it. Even a glance through the posts in this forum will confirm that.

 

[aelf]

merely to point out that the CPC had made quite an impressive improvement of life for the Chinese. True, that there is still a long way to go. But u have to give them the credit.

Compare that to 30-60 million dead? Meh.

its impossible to be equal. coz opportunity and human ability are different too.

China is far from equal.

never in my wildest dream. But maybe next time, my company could serve them.

Tsk tsk. Dreaming to be a lackey already?

ur choice.

You have run out of arguments.

Of coz, my factory is in Suzhou... its getting better. The project is not a failure.

Wait, are you in the PAP's payroll? The amount of dubious propaganda you are spouting is incredible. Ask anyone intelligent what they think of the Industrial Park there. Your one factory isn't indicative of anything. Look at what the Chinese built around your precious Industrial Park. More of the same at even lower costs. Is there any surprise it failed?

Thats my observant thru traveling to many places. So far. all countries suffer the same problem.

Nope. Not every human being is as lowly as you think, and that's pretty well known with examples.

you claimed singapore is a bad place to start a business in another post.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with transparency.

unfortunately, yes.

Then your fair business practices fail utterly.

its a supply and demand problem. find a good product that no one can refuse... Singapore is still of opportunity IMHO. and rich ppl are plentiful.

Then you have no idea about economics. It is not a simple supply and demand problem. There are plenty of good products around that are not marketed very well. The trouble is marketing success depends on how much money you can put in it, which is not a lot when you don't have a very high start up capital and can't make much profit, and whether there are established brand names that have relatively inelastic demand and thus make the market difficult to break into. Also, even with a new product, consumers are not always comfortable with something new, and there will always be existing viable alternatives, so marketing is still very important. Not only that, keeping labour costs low without extensive protectionism is a losing strategy if you are trying to develop local industries because low labour costs = lower costs but also = lower national income = lower aggregate demand. The only way it can help is by encouraging foreign investment, which benefit from economies of scale and have high start up capitals and which the government hopes can increase national income by a wider margin than the loss caused by keeping wages low. But when there are large foreign companies in a small market like Singapore, there tends to be a crowding out effect that harms local industries.

In this light, the government's more recent initiatives to groom local entrepreneurs don't make sense. It can basically only aim at niche markets that have not been touched, with the hopes of expanding overseas before it's too late. However, quick copycats and the downsides of rapid expansion can still scuttle it completely, as you can see from the bubble tea and 1-Dollar Shop phenomena.

About the progress in China and Singapore. im not critical of the economical improvement. i think they both did a good job so far. We are a little OT thou.

Does that make you turn a blind eye to the terrible mistakes or the political follies that have happened or are still going on?

its ur right to complain. I merely telling my side of the story. I have nothing to be jealous of. I can attain whatever i want on my own.

Working hard with low pay tends to make people have an envious complex, even if they are well-fed with propaganda that they sincerely try to believe in.

Im always consistent. Nobody can win all the time, even the elites have to give in at times.

When? Yeah, sure, I give everyone $100 during election time so that they vote for me. Is that giving in? When the government said they would improve income equality, what they did shortly afterwards was increase the very high ministerial pay. Giving in? Yeah, sure.

Well, thats ur opinion. But this is also another OOT.

It's not OOT because I'm pointing out why your arguments have no substance whatever and flit inconsistently from point to point with hardly any coherence, especially when they are trying to question your opponent's credibility. What I can conclude is that your premises are merely built on straws: thin bits of propaganda that people can only believe if they are a) uneducated or b) applying doublethink.

 

[Ramius75]

Compare that to 30-60 million dead? Meh.

It was in the past. The current gov has to make sure that such things cannot happened again and im happy with the improvements made over the years.

China is far from equal.

No country has been equal and since every human's ability is different. Its difficult to ask for equality too.

Tsk tsk. Dreaming to be a lackey already?

Nope,but i hope that i could be more useful to help more people.

You have run out of arguments.

I found little point arguing with u. There are talkers, there are doers.

Wait, are you in the PAP's payroll? The amount of dubious propaganda you are spouting is incredible. Ask anyone intelligent what they think of the Industrial Park there. Your one factory isn't indicative of anything. Look at what the Chinese built around your precious Industrial Park. More of the same at even lower costs. Is there any surprise it failed?

Agree that it was in the wrong then. But the different has been corrected. Sure the chinese won this time. And Singaporean learn a big lesson. But its looking forward thats important. Singapore btw, invested in More industrial park since.

Spoiler :

·Invitation to bid on solar energy road lamps 2008-04-16
·Investment invitation for a lattice panel project 2008-04-16
·Investment invitation for an environmentally-friendly cable and electric wire project 2008-04-16
·Investment invitation for a brushless motor project 2008-04-16
·Investment invitation for electronic grade cloth production 2008-04-15
·Invitation to bid on Wood-Plastics Composites Project 2008-04-15
·Invitation to bid on a 100,000-crank shaft and camshaft project 2008-04-14
·Development of 500-ton new-type soft-packaged instant food production line 2008-04-14
·Investment invitation for 500,000-ton active calcium oxide project 2008-04-14
·Clear Spring Ecotourism Park invites investments 2008-04-14
·Industrial Waste Water Treatment Factory Project awaits investment 2008-04-14
·Ginger Product Processing and Development Project invite investments 2008-04-14
·Hebei’s Undertakings Promotion Week opens 2008-04-14
·A project with an annual output of 1 billion environmentally-friendly tableware 2008-04-14
·Projects Investment Consultation and Talks in Nanjing 2008-04-14
·Nanjing announces projects in the oncoming Nanjing Key Project Negotiation Conference 2008-04-14
·Chinese company supply plastic woven products 2008-04-11
·Hangzhou Glory Technology CO.LTD supplies microscope eyepiece 2008-04-11
·China starts to export solar energy technology 2008-04-09
·China’s high-tech manufacturing sector ranks first in global market 2008-04-09
·Jilin Overseas Chinese Project Conference opens 2008-04-08
·Feixi County Xiaomiao Town Household Electric Appliances Supporting Industrial Park Project 2008-04-07
·Developing high temperature-resistant anti-friction PEEK self-lubricating composite materials 2008-04-07
·Xinjiang Fangting Knitting Texture Co. seeks cooperators 2008-04-07
·International Simulation Industry Exhibition and Conference 2008-04-07

Nope. Not every human being is as lowly as you think, and that's pretty well known with examples.

Of coz, there are some who will not be bought by money. but i have a motto also. "everyone has a price. its a matter of how much."

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with transparency.

I also did attached a reference on world index on the most business friendly country.

Then your fair business practices fail utterly.

I hope not.

Then you have no idea about economics. It is not a simple supply and demand problem. There are plenty of good products around that are not marketed very well. The trouble is marketing success depends on how much money you can put in it, which is not a lot when you don't have a very high start up capital and can't make much profit, and whether there are established brand names that have relatively inelastic demand and thus make the market difficult to break into. Also, even with a new product, consumers are not always comfortable with something new, and there will always be existing viable alternatives, so marketing is still very important. Not only that, keeping labour costs low without extensive protectionism is a losing strategy if you are trying to develop local industries because low labour costs = lower costs but also = lower national income = lower aggregate demand. The only way it can help is by encouraging foreign investment, which benefit from economies of scale and have high start up capitals and which the government hopes can increase national income by a wider margin than the loss caused by keeping wages low. But when there are large foreign companies in a small market like Singapore, there tends to be a crowding out effect that harms local industries.

No doubt about it. I know doing business aren't that easy. (else i could be richer). Small companies have to start small and wary of cash flow. But opportunity still exist.

From my experience. working with big MNC are actually easier as its the local small competitors that going to kill u. Not the big players.

In this light, the government's more recent initiatives to groom local entrepreneurs don't make sense. It can basically only aim at niche markets that have not been touched, with the hopes of expanding overseas before it's too late. However, quick copycats and the downsides of rapid expansion can still scuttle it completely, as you can see from the bubble tea and 1-Dollar Shop phenomena.

Thats one of the problem i have to admit, copycats are truly one of the lowest lifeform i hate. But its a business environment. Good ideas are often quickly copied. happened in Hollywood too, when suddenly 2 studios could release movies of the same theme.
Copycat in business exist everywhere unfortunately.

Does that make you turn a blind eye to the terrible mistakes or the political follies that have happened or are still going on?

No of coz not. much to ur surprise. Im not a PAP supporter. I even spent time call and lobbied to my friends not to vote for PAP during elections.
Not becoz i think PAP is not doing a good job economically, but i also loathe at the idea of blackmailing, using bride, using threats and gerrymandering in elections.

Working hard with low pay tends to make people have an envious complex, even if they are well-fed with propaganda that they sincerely try to believe in.

IF the PAP failed to address to standard of living, social mobility and inflation. Then they are truly failing in the governing. But the true fact is, more and more singaporean can afford to travel on holiday and some manage to migrate overseas. this is prove that our economical ability is still stronger than others.

When? Yeah, sure, I give everyone $100 during election time so that they vote for me. Is that giving in? When the government said they would improve income equality, what they did shortly afterwards was increase the very high ministerial pay. Giving in? Yeah, sure.

when the citizen no longer buy into such gimmicks. the PAP will fail. when the people think that the pay is too high. they have a choice to vote the PAP out.

But how the people want to vote, thats their business. If they want to be manipulate by the PAP, its their choice. If they are too stupid to realise. Its their choice too. this is the spirit of democracy.

It's not OOT because I'm pointing out why your arguments have no substance whatever and flit inconsistently from point to point with hardly any coherence, especially when they are trying to question your opponent's credibility. What I can conclude is that your premises are merely built on straws: thin bits of propaganda that people can only believe if they are a) uneducated or b) applying doublethink.

My arguments are base on my observation and my understanding. I have different priorities than urs and hence we have different views. I dont think i can change ur view on Singapore and China. But i think its rather simple and typical views as i also heard many such complaints from my fellow friends and people i know of. i dont see things in black and white.

 

[Archbob]

Thats one of the problem i have to admit, copycats are truly one of the lowest lifeform i hate. But its a business environment. Good ideas are often quickly copied. happened in Hollywood too, when suddenly 2 studios could release movies of the same theme.
Copycat in business exist everywhere unfortunately.

Bad for you but good for the consumer. Copycats raise competition, therefore lowering prices for consumers.

 

[Ramius75]

Bad for you but good for the consumer. Copycats raise competition, therefore lowering prices for consumers.

I know. part and parcel of businesses. Im still thinking on how to overcome this with patent rights and technological edge, larger economical of scale. but limited capital here...

 

[aelf]

It was in the past. The current gov has to make sure that such things cannot happened again and im happy with the improvements made over the years.

Not enough to make up for the horrible mistakes yet, IMO. It's not hard for most objective people to agree.

No country has been equal and since every human's ability is different. Its difficult to ask for equality too.

Not asking for equality. But in China corruption is still quite horrible and the rich are much richer than the average population.

I found little point arguing with u. There are talkers, there are doers.

And how is the 2nd sentence connected with the 1st? This is my field.

Agree that it was in the wrong then. But the different has been corrected. Sure the chinese won this time. And Singaporean learn a big lesson. But its looking forward thats important. Singapore btw, invested in More industrial park since.

It's difficult not to see that it was a failure, isn't it?

All I can say is good luck for the future.

Of coz, there are some who will not be bought by money. but i have a motto also. "everyone has a price. its a matter of how much."

I disagree. But I know that the Singapore government thinks so too.

I also did attached a reference on world index on the most business friendly country.

In terms of government economic policy, it is quite libertarian in some ways. However, it is friendlier to foreign business than to local business. The economic terrain does the rest of the job killing local startups.

No doubt about it. I know doing business aren't that easy. (else i could be richer). Small companies have to start small and wary of cash flow. But opportunity still exist.

Opportunity exists everywhere. Just not a lot in Singapore.

From my experience. working with big MNC are actually easier as its the local small competitors that going to kill u. Not the big players.

Perhaps that is because MNCs do not need to compete fiercely? It's not the local companies' fault.

Thats one of the problem i have to admit, copycats are truly one of the lowest lifeform i hate. But its a business environment. Good ideas are often quickly copied. happened in Hollywood too, when suddenly 2 studios could release movies of the same theme.
Copycat in business exist everywhere unfortunately.

You can fight them by offering superior quality, but in a small market like Singapore there's not a lot of room to manuever.

No of coz not. much to ur surprise. Im not a PAP supporter. I even spent time call and lobbied to my friends not to vote for PAP during elections.
Not becoz i think PAP is not doing a good job economically, but i also loathe at the idea of blackmailing, using bride, using threats and gerrymandering in elections.

Good for you, then.

IF the PAP failed to address to standard of living, social mobility and inflation. Then they are truly failing in the governing. But the true fact is, more and more singaporean can afford to travel on holiday and some manage to migrate overseas. this is prove that our economical ability is still stronger than others.

Going on holidays and migrating depend very much on other factors besides an increase in wealth. Also, the happiness index in Singapore is kind of going down, isn't it? That's gotta show how stressful life has become over there. Need I even talk about property prices? Even expatriates are complaining a lot.

when the citizen no longer buy into such gimmicks. the PAP will fail. when the people think that the pay is too high. they have a choice to vote the PAP out.

One thing I do admire about the PAP is how slick and adaptable it is. Good for politicians, bad for people.

But how the people want to vote, thats their business. If they want to be manipulate by the PAP, its their choice. If they are too stupid to realise. Its their choice too. this is the spirit of democracy.

I'm not saying "ZOMG, OVERTHROW THE PAP NOW!!!" I just think it's quite stupid and I dislike the political and social culture.

My arguments are base on my observation and my understanding. I have different priorities than urs and hence we have different views. I dont think i can change ur view on Singapore and China. But i think its rather simple and typical views as i also heard many such complaints from my fellow friends and people i know of. i dont see things in black and white.

I don't think my views are simple and typical. Like I said, you can have an extensive discussion with me about the nature of politics in Singapore and China (the latter not as much, of course), probably unlike with your friends. This is my field.

I share some of the views of renowned thinkers such as Amartya Sen on these issues, by the way.

I know. part and parcel of businesses. Im still thinking on how to overcome this with patent rights and technological edge, larger economical of scale. but limited capital here...

Limited capital is a problem, isn't it?

 

[plarq]

I know. part and parcel of businesses. Im still thinking on how to overcome this with patent rights and technological edge, larger economical of scale. but limited capital here...

Copycats reduce the will to develop expensive technologies. However, since copying or reverse engineering takes a lot of time, the original developer could make a lot of money before copied, thus ensure a progressing society with reasonable price.

 

[Ramius75]

Not enough to make up for the horrible mistakes yet, IMO. It's not hard for most objective people to agree.

It was 2 different periods. But i rather see concrete improvement in living standard 1st and then human rights.

Not asking for equality. But in China corruption is still quite horrible and the rich are much richer than the average population.

Its part and parcel of a free economy. There are rewards for those who took risks and front runner. No free lunch.

And how is the 2nd sentence connected with the 1st? This is my field.

There are many who can talk about politics. and u as a student of political studies may understand more than others. But i view talking as no different from the old mom and pop chatting in coffee shop.

I rather try to contribute more thru creating more jobs and improve standard of living.

It's difficult not to see that it was a failure, isn't it?

All I can say is good luck for the future.

Thanks. As an investors, we only look at future growth. But we learn from mistakes.

I disagree. But I know that the Singapore government thinks so too.

There is a price to everything, like it or not thou.

In terms of government economic policy, it is quite libertarian in some ways. However, it is friendlier to foreign business than to local business. The economic terrain does the rest of the job killing local startups.

Maybe, they often give them additional advantage to so call "attract investment". But i think its good that Singapore business is put thru a tougher growth stage. so that the better ones can survive and thrive. (not many thou)

Opportunity exists everywhere. Just not a lot in Singapore.

Size does matters. Thats why we need to expand oversea.

Perhaps that is because MNCs do not need to compete fiercely? It's not the local companies' fault.

Can't really blame them. But copycats do get onto my nerve (not that i was affected, but i have friends who were). nonetheless, we still make more money than being an employee.

You can fight them by offering superior quality, but in a small market like Singapore there's not a lot of room to manuever.

Copycats can have superior quality too. Some even have more capitals and better network. They are just looking for better ideas. I think business can be equally hard elsewhere, USA, China, India, Malaysia etc etc.

Good for you, then.

Most of my business friends still support PAP thou. they are even more Machiavellian than me.

Going on holidays and migrating depend very much on other factors besides an increase in wealth. Also, the happiness index in Singapore is kind of going down, isn't it? That's gotta show how stressful life has become over there. Need I even talk about property prices? Even expatriates are complaining a lot.

Not many countries will want additional population if they cannot contribute to the society. So education and investment plays a big part. They don't want parasites.

I heard of a joke where Nixon complained to Mao about the Human rights conditions in China. And then Mao replied. "Ok, i let them migrate over. How many you want ? 1 million, 2 millions ?". Nixon kept quiet ever since.

It just reflects upon on "how much" the so called west's concern about Human rights practices. Its a great tool to have for so called western propaganda also.

One thing I do admire about the PAP is how slick and adaptable it is. Good for politicians, bad for people.

I'm starting to appreciate the PAP gov thou. I like the liberalism approach to economic. but i dont like the way they try to rule the people as sheep.

I'm not saying "ZOMG, OVERTHROW THE PAP NOW!!!" I just think it's quite stupid and I dislike the political and social culture.

Whats wrong with the social culture ?

I don't think my views are simple and typical. Like I said, you can have an extensive discussion with me about the nature of politics in Singapore and China (the latter not as much, of course), probably unlike with your friends. This is my field.

I share some of the views of renowned thinkers such as Amartya Sen on these issues, by the way.

Interesting, shall read up on that. but my views were more based on how to improve the economic and standard of living for the people. With some element of Friedman and Hayek...

Limited capital is a problem, isn't it?

Everyone has their limits and problem. Its how we face up to them and solve them.

 

[Ramius75]

Copycats reduce the will to develop expensive technologies. However, since copying or reverse engineering takes a lot of time, the original developer could make a lot of money before copied, thus ensure a progressing society with reasonable price.

Maybe, But we are taking about Copycats of business ideas. Kind of like Donuts craze or fast food craze... It does benefits the consumers of coz. But tough for business starts up...

 

[Archbob]

The problem with reowned thinkers is they are thinkers and not do'ers. Thinkers tend to be quite idealistic in nature, unlike those of us who do business.

 

[stormbind]

for giving in to terrorists? cheese eating surrender monkeys!!

That's nothing. The French have paid terrorists in the past.

 

[Marla_Singer]

That's nothing. The French have paid terrorists in the past.

That's true. During world war 2, Free France was funding resistance which is generally assimilated to terrorism. Meanwhile, Vichy France was collaborating to the Holocaust, which is kinda terrorist too in a way.

 

[RedRalph]

That's nothing. The French have paid terrorists in the past.

And the Brits have colluded with them to kill Irish civilians.

 

[aelf]

The problem with reowned thinkers is they are thinkers and not do'ers. Thinkers tend to be quite idealistic in nature, unlike those of us who do business.

Wow. Let's see your name appear prominently somewhere soon, then.

Doers Isn't thinking doing something?

Are you Randist, by the way?

PS: It amuses me to think that Aristotle was not a doer. What a lousy thinker!

 

[aelf]

It was 2 different periods. But i rather see concrete improvement in living standard 1st and then human rights.

Hmm... I wonder what constitutes a clear demarcation between two safely separate periods. Within living memory and it being the same party seem to be rather strong connections to me.

Its part and parcel of a free economy. There are rewards for those who took risks and front runner. No free lunch.

Defending corruption while upholding fair business practices. Must be well versed in doublethink.

There are many who can talk about politics. and u as a student of political studies may understand more than others. But i view talking as no different from the old mom and pop chatting in coffee shop.

Similarly, anyone can talk about science. But whether it turns out to be Star Wars or real science kind of depends on how much they know.

I rather try to contribute more thru creating more jobs and improve standard of living.

That is well and good and universally agreed to be so. The problem is how you do that.

Thanks. As an investors, we only look at future growth. But we learn from mistakes.

Of course, but it was sold as a potential great success by the government. You know, if you trust your government so much, you are likely to invest in what it tells you is good to invest in...

There is a price to everything, like it or not thou.

A self-fulfiling prophecy, yes?

Can't really blame them. But copycats do get onto my nerve (not that i was affected, but i have friends who were). nonetheless, we still make more money than being an employee.

Losing money is making money??

Most of my business friends still support PAP thou. they are even more Machiavellian than me.

The PAP benefits the most from the people's support, though, not the other way round. Yay for the PAP

I heard of a joke where Nixon complained to Mao about the Human rights conditions in China. And then Mao replied. "Ok, i let them migrate over. How many you want ? 1 million, 2 millions ?". Nixon kept quiet ever since.

It just reflects upon on "how much" the so called west's concern about Human rights practices. Its a great tool to have for so called western propaganda also.

Indeed. But the average American was laughing till quite recently while the average Chinese is still languishing in the industrial muck.

I'm starting to appreciate the PAP gov thou. I like the liberalism approach to economic. but i dont like the way they try to rule the people as sheep.

Me neither. But the Singapore economy is not exactly liberal.

Whats wrong with the social culture ?

Plenty, but it would be very much OT to discuss it here.