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Paris suburbs - Is it starting again?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Marla_Singer, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Location:
    Paris, west side (92).
    Metropherique hasn't been approved yet, unfortunately. The president of the region (Jean-Paul Huchon) is against it. After strong pressures, he decided to propose multiple "Arc-Express" lines instead, lines which are less ambitious since they are neither underground nor express. Furthermore, the former version of the SDRIF doesn't plan the construction of the first line before 2025.

    New transports in the suburbs weren't the priority of the SDRIF. There were indeed some tramway projects, but that's all. Extension of line 11 eastbound wasn't plan before 2020, the RER E extension westbound was undecided, and line 14 wasn't extended at all. Furthermore, well, I've already mentioned how metropherique was destroyed by the same SDRIF.

    Anyway, Sarkozy has rejected the SDRIF, which means that it is currently re-elaborated. Sarkozy considered Huchon's first version to not be enough ambitious for the region and to lack of a general vision, something I fully agree with.

    Metropherique should become the first priority in public transports, as well as the extension of the RER E westbound to relieve a bit the RER A. In my humble opinion, line 14 should be extended so that it would include the Asnières-Gennevilliers branch of line 13, and get rid of the saturation of the Northern part of line 13. Furthermore, line 5 should be extended southbound to Thiais. Well, this is not really the point of this thread so I won't go further, but clearly we need something much more ambitious for public transports in the Paris area than what Huchon was planning with the SDRIF. Let's hope it will be the case in the revised version.

    You don't necessarily know that, but the Paris metro is one of the only in the world to serve only the center of the urban area. Generally speaking, metro networks go deep in the suburban areas. Of course, that wouldn't be possible in the case of Paris since there are too many stations close to one another and hence it would be too slow. However, there are still room to extend nearly every lines deeper in the suburbs.

    Jean-Paul Huchon, the current President of the region, is the antithesis of ambition in politics. Michel Giraud, his RPR predecessor, had at least launched the RER E an the line 14. Initially, the line 14 project when launched was supposed northbound to take the line 13 branch to Asnières-Gennevilliers and extending it to the Gennevilliers harbour, and southbound to take the Villejuif branch and extending it to Orly airport. Jean-Paul Huchon behaved as a butcher: He stopped all projects of extension of line 14, he abandonned the project of extension to Orly airport (replacing it by a tramway between the airport and Villejuif !! How useful !), and finally only the line 13 extension to the Gennevilliers harbour could remain because it was too advanced. But the result is catastrophic, for the simple reason that the line will be extended despite being already saturated. I hope line 14 will still be extended to encompass that branch of line 13, but unfortunately recent events don't seem to follow that direction.

    Anyway, if you had a good opinion of Huchon because he was supposed to do public transports in the Paris area, you couldn't be more wrong. He has destroyed all projects he could have in the hand. For instance, the extension of line 13 to the Velizy business center has been abandonned and replaced by a tramway line doing the shuttle between Velizy and Châtillon. Could you tell me the point of this ? What's the difference for people getting through Paris between taking the line 13 to the terminus and then take the bus and taking the line 13 to the terminus and then take the tram? It's the same thing. The saddest is that the Velizy business district was initially planned in the perspective of an extension of line 13. Nowadays, there's the businness district, but no heavy rail transport ! The result, huge traffic jams. :shake:
     
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    @Verbose- Alright, looks like you guys are pretty well covered in the riot control department ;) . So it looks like my question has been answered, military intervention is not needed (which might be for the better, as it has already been stated).
     
  3. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Location:
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    According to sociologist studies, it is estimated that between a third and a half of French population have foreign roots (depending how far you go in the history of generations). France has a low demographic growth since the 19th century explaining why it's been an immigration country since then (at a time when most of its neighbours suffered from a demographic booming and massive waves of emigration). Genes have never meant anything to determine French nationality.

    The people who are currently rioting are all French, no matter if they are white, black or purple. Actually, the areas generally rioting are the most marginalized of the urban area, not those where there are the largest black or arab population. The largest concentration of black or Arab people is in the North East of the city proper of Paris: the 18th and 19th arrondissements of Paris, Saint-Denis, Aubervilliers. That's not the areas where riots start.

    To me, there are three key ingredients making TNT when put altogether:
    - marginalization of the concerned districts which are far from everything.
    - low education and general lack of access to education and cultural activities.
    - strong unemployment.

    With all the three elements together, a significant part of youngsters having been raised there are totally cut out from the rest of society, and thus grow an insular mentality with a strong identification to "their" territory and a reject of anything from the rest of society inviting itself in the neighbourhood without asking (police, firemen, teachers, journalists, etc...).
     
  4. Izipo

    Izipo Hardcore casual gamer

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    As often Marla, you're spot on the money.
    Have you seen Sarko's interview tonight ?
     
  5. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

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    To all those in France. Do you think this has any sort of legitimacy to it?
     
  6. Italian Celtic

    Italian Celtic real european

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    Italy the the land of sun in E.U.
    This situation remind me my city Naples in south Italy
    Personally i can consider meself lucky given that i live in zone with high education and work for all but the majority of people here is in the same situation of Paris people

    certain we haven't revolts but all these bad things lead people to join mafia:(

    I am thinking if is possible a cooperation between Naples and Paris to solve our common problems

    What do you think? :mischief:
     
  7. Bronx Warlord

    Bronx Warlord Squad Leader

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    What little support these criminals had in my eyes from there plight was lost once and for all when they began shooting at the police. You can wrap it in any spin you want, imho it's simply a case of a bunch of punk kids and young adults who have yet to feel the iron fist behind the velvet glove. Send in the Legion, imho :)
     
  8. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    Ah, this I hadn't thought of all this time, but it makes a lot of sense, so I tend to agree. I wasn't sure where to go with your calls for a Greater Paris, thinking we could still keep local authorities for some matters and have the rest decided by larger authorities (what is done now, but maybe redistributed). Anyway, I now agree some critical issues like transportation must all be decided on a high level. And we can still keep Montmartrobus (managed by Paris 18ème) for bobos and tourists if they want. ;)

    Oops, that's precisely why I refused to accept my internship to be in Vélizy early this year ! :blush: I frankly didn't want to lose so much time in random buses (I live in Colombes). Fortunately they got me something in La Défense, that's much better ! :D

    My quick view of Paris. I like the city, and I still view it as being different than the suburbs. You can call it Paris intra-muros, Paris downtown, Paris centre, etc... it's something different. But I reckon it must be strongly attached to the rest. I favour an extension of RER E westwards ; La Défense needs more lines !!! But there's also an annoying, missing connection in Paris itself : a direct go from Etoile to Saint-Lazare, which has always bugged me. Maybe RER E could go directly to Etoile, and then directly to La Défense (why not near Esplanade, so as to be useful to my skyscrapper ? ;) ). Finish the tram all around Paris. Stop thinking about new residential towers in Paris itself, it can only be ugly !! Destroy the other towers, they're all ugly (including Montparnasse), but keep Eiffel of course. Put 100,000 Velibs. :D Make all metro lines automatic like Line 14, so as to have metros on strike days.
     
  9. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Deity

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    Would you like French fries with that?

    ;)
     
  10. angeleyes

    angeleyes mood indigo

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    Wow, has it stopped? I'm surprised. Anyone an idea why? First time it lasted for months iirc.
     
  11. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    They got bored with it.
     
  12. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    They realized the only people paying them any attention were foreigners on internet message boards who just seized on it as a reason to criticize and mock France.

    Since even the most hardcore rebels don't like giving foreigners reasons to mock their country, they just said "Ah, to hell with it. Let's go steal from the mall."
     
  13. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    I read that only single cartigue shot guns are legal firearms in France. All other forms of firearms are prohibited by law. Martial law for Paris would be simple enough to restore order.
     
  14. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    What, simpler that just deal with the problem in a measured way until the rioting youths calmed down, and then carry on with slowly making the necessary changes to avoid repetitions?

    Come on, I did expected the resident EU-armband militaristic fanatic to call for the police to "crush them", but why do other keep talking of "martial law", especially after it was proven that such a measure was certainly unnecessary and, in all likelihood, a huge folly?
     
  15. Lotus49

    Lotus49 Emperor

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    Including yourself, for example. Moroccan Jewish, Spanish, etc. IIRC

    Marla, I have to tell you; it's possible that I am more French than you are. Thus your overpowering sense of nationalism has always puzzled me.

    I'll always maintain that the REAL French... the aristocracy - came over to North America (first to Canada, then mostly trickled down to the U.S.) after the RIFF-RAFF revolted and forced them to leave at the end of the 18th century. Since then we've vowed never to learn the French language, and hold a grudge. You can't seem to understand certain things, I've noticed. Think about it.

    There's still some decent blood over there, but it's rapidly being polluted (and yes, I do say polluted - because French women are something special to me). If I want a 'French woman' nowadays, my best bet is actually to go to eastern Canada. And d@mn that photographer who married Laetitia Casta. She would have been so much happier with me.

    But, there's got to be more like her. Hopefully I can find one before Adullah al-Saheed Muhammad Jahbir takes her as one of his wives, and they get married by jumping over a broomstick. Why am I always being pressured by time?!
     
  16. Trajan12

    Trajan12 Deity

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    EXACTLY! I suggest we restore the monarchy to deal with those democracy wantin' riff raff. After that we should move all that tainted polluted and indecent blood, namely .. .. .. .., sand .. .. .. .., and everyone else into camps, to keep them from stealin' the pure blooded wimenz. Preserve the blood line! Make careful you don't end up marrying any disgusting mut women while you're at it!
     
  17. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Exactly. "Humanity begins with the baron!":lol:
     
  18. LAnkou

    LAnkou Breizh A Tao

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    Actually there's few people with french genes. Exemple: Blood groups are determined by genes. Normal people blood groups are A+, A-, B+, B-, O+, O-, AB+, AB-

    True French people are F#, F§ or F&
    Personnally, I'm F#. I believe Marla is F& like kryszcztov

    What is your blood group?
     
  19. Kosez

    Kosez Sitting Wool

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    As much as I would like to agree with you I can't. You see, I bet Russians felt the same way about Czech back then. They were terribly wrong. And so are you. You can't say: some riots are OK and some are not. Maybe I'm looking at the whole thing from too much of a legalistic perspective. But law comes from justice and not the other way around.

    What am I trying to say is, Europe had so many small and big rebellions against society/government even other nations. Almost all of them were justified, illegal but legitimate. What moral rights do you have to mark Paris riots as illegitimate?

    At least you should try to look at the topic from different perspectives. People in banlieus are people too, worth exactly the same as other French citizens, with equal rights. If we are going to just discard them as thugs, criminals, etc..., we are going to repeat the mistake Czech communists did in 68 (you know: Indra, Kolder, Husak, ...).

    We have to ask ourselves what will make our society better: try to minimalize situation and repress the rioters or try to help them and develop programs which will make them equal French and EU citizens not just de lege but also de facto.
    Q.E.D.

    It's very easy for us to sit at home, behind our computers and make ad hoc judgments about everything we took glimpse on the internet/TV. But we don't really know the situation. It's as we'd judge people basing our judgments on the facts took from news wires. Real courts don't do that. To judge someone is a tedious and complicated task, you have to get to know all kinds of evidence, facts and expert knowledge. We probably won't get this opportunity, so at least we should prevent ourselves to make arbitrary judgments.
     

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